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  1. #301
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I do not think this is what I read.
    I had another point.
    But all right: This thing appears skewed, too. In another way.

    You take the straight path.
    I circle.
    I am lost.

    If you take the straight path you are not lost?

    Do you really believe you can compare Sioux Falls and San Francisco?
    What fundamentally divides these people is but a party card?

    Sioux Falls. A small religious place. A community centred around the Church.
    They have the bucket going around in the Church you know. Every Sunday.

    You are supposed to insert notes in the bucket through the narrow opening at the top of the thing. It takes some effort. And time. The others see what you are donating!
    It is the purpose of the thing: the others can see and judge.
    You cannot hide.
    You are a public spectacle.

    In San Francisco you are not likely to go to church at all.
    Nobody pulls your leg. No priest twists you round his little finger.

    You live in a small townee. You walk your dog along the paveway. You know everybody.
    Hello Bill. Hi Jane. How'rya. Fine, fine. How's the leg? Fine, fine.
    Forced smiles. Receding steps.

    Beware the night.
    There is a hiss in the woodworks.
    Everybody knows.
    How much you put in that bucket.


    But this was based on tax returns. These are quantifiable figures based on what people put on credit/debit cards or for which they wrote checks. We aren't talking about $5 in the collection plate or change for the kids trying to get football uniforms. What is your point?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by maliafee View Post
    What makes the current Republican party appealing and why? WHICH values does it appeal to? And don't just tell me "X". If you say one value, it's gotta make sense. It can't be contradicted by another value held by the party. I'm trying to figure out what the pull is.
    If you exclude all contridictions and compartmentalized thinking, you'll never ever understand anything about human nature.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I've never heard such pessimistic people in all my life as a democrat talking politics. Ya'll need a bit of sunshine.

    I'm conservative, but not republican. I don't think I'll be able to write anything that others haven't put beautifully. But kiddo, are you being sarcastic when you talk about the hard work?

    I think self reliance and the support of the community to keep each other self reliant are key aspects of American life and are essential to the prosperity of the country. Everyone does what they can, is how it's suppose to work. The hard work value can be traced back to the friggen Pilgrims, it's a key focus of American society from the get-go.

    I'm not socalist by any sense of the word.. I don't think there is anything wrong with that government system itself, only that if I wanted to live under socialism I would move to a place that is socialist already instead of trying to pull my hair out and stress about the other 50someodd% that's like me. I like America the way it is, I think it just needs work.
    The Pilgrams lived a form of Religious Communism.

  4. #304
    Senior Member cogdecree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    The Pilgrams lived a form of Religious Communism.
    Which Pilgrims have you been reading about? Central law and order did not exist in any great measure back then, hell, bartering was still the main method of trading.

    Unless every small old world town is considered to be run under communism, I'd have to disagree with the statement.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogdecree View Post
    Which Pilgrims have you been reading about? Central law and order did not exist in any great measure back then, hell, bartering was still the main method of trading.

    Unless every small old world town is considered to be run under communism, I'd have to disagree with the statement.
    I don't understand your comment about central law. Both the Pilgrims and the Puritians had colonial laws and governmental bodies. The Pilgrims were more democratic the Puritans more authortarian.

    Read specifically about Pilgrims. They had intentional communial living for their first seven years as a colony. And no, that doesn't just mean they bartered for goods.

  6. #306
    Senior Member cogdecree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I don't understand your comment about central law. Both the Pilgrims and the Puritians had colonial laws and governmental bodies. The Pilgrims were more democratic the Puritans more authortarian.

    Read specifically about Pilgrims. They had intentional communial living for their first seven years as a colony. And no, that doesn't just mean they bartered for goods.
    Central law did exist, but only for emergencies (most central law in general procted those who posses money and land), most law and order was carried out by the community itself (I think we agree on this).

    My point was challanging the claim of that the Pilgrims lived under "religious communism".

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogdecree View Post
    Central law did exist, but only for emergencies (most central law in general procted those who posses money and land), most law and order was carried out by the community itself (I think we agree on this).

    My point was challanging the claim of that the Pilgrims lived under "religious communism".
    Okay I am not following your logic here. You seem to be saying that if the community itself (The governing body of that community) hands out justice (in the case of the Pilgrims a democratic government) then it's economic system cannot be one of religious communism"?

    These colonies had their own governing bodies, complete with a governor, they had a system of trials and punishments for crimes. The pilgrim colony was well ordered. I don't understand where you can say there was no central law.

  8. #308
    Senior Member cogdecree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Okay I am not following your logic here. You seem to be saying that if the community itself (The governing body of that community) hands out justice (in the case of the Pilgrims a democratic government) then it's economic system cannot be one of religious communism"?

    These colonies had their own governing bodies, complete with a governor, they had a system of trials and punishments for crimes. The pilgrim colony was well ordered. I don't understand where you can say there was no central law.
    I don't call it communism because I believe communism requires more than what occurred during those times. All communities were run in a similar fashion. I consider communism more unique, its a philosophy, a fiscal system, all in one (we could even break it up further by ideological and application).

    Perhaps you should define "religioius communism"

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogdecree View Post
    I don't call it communism because I believe communism requires more than what occurred during those times. All communities were run in a similar fashion. I consider communism more unique, its a philosophy, a fiscal system, all in one (we could even break it up further by ideological and application).

    Perhaps you should define "religioius communism"
    How many towns in the 1600s had communal property (not talking about fedualism where a noble owns the land and rents it out to tenant farmers) where all members have an equal stake and all have an equal say?

    It has nothing to do with a barter system.

    As the years passed, the Pilgrims economic and government system changed.

    Also the Puritans are often confused with the Pilgrims and the Puritans had a different economy and a different government outlook. Puritans did not have a communal property foundation and they did not have the same kind of democratic government, they were very authoritarian.

    EDIT: btw, you seem to be saying that communism by definition has to be Marxism? Is this what you are really saying?

  10. #310
    Senior Member cogdecree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    How many towns in the 1600s had communal property (not talking about fedualism where a noble owns the land and rents it out to tenant farmers) where all members have an equal stake and all have an equal say?

    It has nothing to do with a barter system.

    As the years passed, the Pilgrims economic and government system changed.

    Also the Puritans are often confused with the Pilgrims and the Puritans had a different economy and a different. Puritans did not have a communal property foundation and they did not have the same kind of democratic government, they were very authoritarian.
    So all communism needs is communal property? Under this definition some Native American tribes are communist as well.

    Also the USSR and many other communist governments during this time can be easily classified as authortarian (hence ideological vs application).

    The communist manifesto has much more in it than just communal ownership of land.

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