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  1. #281
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    Well, that's insinuation. I don't think abortion is a healing process; I think it's awful. I just think it's the best choice, sometimes. We agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    A typing error on my part, which could have been tipped from "or anything at all easy." My apologies for that.

    Your entire argument is the premise of women's emotions and their ways of dealing with emotional damage. How is that not speculating, since all women are different?

    Abortion is NOT a healing process, it is itself traumatizing. Your words make it sound like abortion is this great relief for women. I'm sure some felt this way, but for most, its a terrible decision. Women in that situation are in a catch 22, damned if you do, and damned if you don't. It's not at all a better or wiser solution to keeping the baby. To call the decision of keeping the baby bullshit is stunning. It is an option, as it should be, but the argument shouldn't be that it's an option to help the woman heal. It's an option for the woman's safety and privacy only, because abortion itself is terrible.

  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Now, I may get pilloried for even asking this... but is it even remotely possible that minorities in the US actually commit more drug crimes than other groups do?

    Please understand, this is only a hypothetical question for consideration. I'm not saying it's what I believe.

    Of course they do. Minorities tend to be poorer, as well. They enter the drug trade because we've made drugs illegal and we have draconian penalties for selling illicit substances, so it's extremely dangerous to sell. This makes the profit potential gigantic, so those who have the most trouble getting high-paying jobs (and, therefore, the highest incentives for getting into the business) end up slinging the drugs. Minorities also tend to be students of our worst public schools, so many of them see no alternatives in their lives. It's a horrible cycle and it will never end as long as we continue this prohibition. The money and bodies will continue to stack up, and our poor minorities will continue to be locked up.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #283
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    wildcat, here is an article about the study. Fire away.

    Who Gives and Who Doesn't? - ABC News
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  4. #284
    Senior Member cogdecree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Of course they do. Minorities tend to be poorer, as well. They enter the drug trade because we've made drugs illegal and we have draconian penalties for selling illicit substances, so it's extremely dangerous to sell. This makes the profit potential gigantic, so those who have the most trouble getting high-paying jobs (and, therefore, the highest incentives for getting into the business) end up slinging the drugs. Minorities also tend to be students of our worst public schools, so many of them see no alternatives in their lives. It's a horrible cycle and it will never end as long as we continue this prohibition. The money and bodies will continue to stack up, and our poor minorities will continue to be locked up.
    Mercury, here is something to feed on (two things actually),

    One, those who make a living off of drugs, which is still a type of living, if it was illegal, do you think that will make them turn to legitimate ways of making money? Or would they find other illegal means?

    Two, it is a lifestyle, and compared to other illegal activities, not quite as harmful (this is usually agreed upon by those who want to legalized drugs), thus having it illegal creates essentially more higher paying jobs with a less violent illegal activity. (this is just one of the theories believing crime is necessary for a functioning society, not necessary my views exactly but are definately off the wall, and fun ideas to play with).

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogdecree View Post
    Mercury, here is something to feed on (two things actually),

    One, those who make a living off of drugs, which is still a type of living, if it was illegal, do you think that will make them turn to legitimate ways of making money? Or would they find other illegal means?
    Well, they wouldn't be going to prison so often if drugs were decriminalized/legalized, although their profits would be gone. We could certainly shift the resources wasted on drug enforcement to the schools. I mean, I am in favor of cutting the government almost everywhere, but certainly fixing dilapidated and dangerous public schools is a better expenditure (especially at the state and local level) than spending money arresting, prosecuting, and incarcerating hundreds of thousands. And we would have far more resources to prosecute real crimes and to fight terrorism (the right way). Also, drug addicts could come out of the shadows to seek treatment and far fewer people would die from taking bad drugs.


    Two, it is a lifestyle, and compared to other illegal activities, not quite as harmful (this is usually agreed upon by those who want to legalized drugs), thus having it illegal creates essentially more higher paying jobs with a less violent illegal activity. (this is just one of the theories believing crime is necessary for a functioning society, not necessary my views exactly but are definately off the wall, and fun ideas to play with).

    What?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #286
    Senior Member cogdecree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Well, they wouldn't be going to prison so often if drugs were decriminalized/legalized, although their profits would be gone. We could certainly shift the resources wasted on drug enforcement to the schools. I mean, I am in favor of cutting the government almost everywhere, but certainly fixing dilapidated and dangerous public schools is a better expenditure (especially at the state and local level) than spending money arresting, prosecuting, and incarcerating hundreds of thousands. And we would have far more resources to prosecute real crimes and to fight terrorism (the right way). Also, drug addicts could come out of the shadows to seek treatment and far fewer people would die from taking bad drugs.





    What?
    First off, are we talking about all drugs or just one in particular?

    Next part, within poorer households, what would prevent families from investing in drugs (Trust me this happens all the time, especially in the LA district) and not into their kids.

    Three, what would legalization do to make more people want to rehabilitate?
    What would stop people from taking bad drugs? I don't see how legalization will cure these issues.

    Itís quite noticeable if you can pull out any crime trends, that show violence crime rates, what you will see is that since the initiation of the war on drugs violent crime has gone down. Could this be a coincidence? Absolutely, there could be other reasons that I may have overlooked, but the statistic is still there, this is solid.

    My last part was a theory floating around that having drugs illegal creates another underground way of making money, and compared to other illegal activities is not as harmful (kidnapping, assassination, trafficking, etc).

    Again not my view but I was just curious on your thoughts on this last piece. A yay or nah response was what I was looking for with the last part.

  7. #287
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogdecree View Post
    First off, are we talking about all drugs or just one in particular?

    Next part, within poorer households, what would prevent families from investing in drugs (Trust me this happens all the time, especially in the LA district) and not into their kids.

    Three, what would legalization do to make more people want to rehabilitate?
    What would stop people from taking bad drugs? I don't see how legalization will cure these issues.

    Itís quite noticeable if you can pull out any crime trends, that show violence crime rates, what you will see is that since the initiation of the war on drugs violent crime has gone down. Could this be a coincidence? Absolutely, there could be other reasons that I may have overlooked, but the statistic is still there, this is solid.

    My last part was a theory floating around that having drugs illegal creates another underground way of making money, and compared to other illegal activities is not as harmful (kidnapping, assassination, trafficking, etc).

    Again not my view but I was just curious on your thoughts on this last piece. A yay or nah response was what I was looking for with the last part.
    im gonna really mess this thread up, but here it goes:

    you know what else coincides with the drug war and decrease in violent crime? all the kids that werent born due to "roe v wade". ie, the age that those kids would have been 15 is when the numbers start to drop. ie they werent around to be raised by disinterested parents... (im not the first to suggest this, i think freakonomics talks about it, though i havent read it)

  8. #288
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogdecree View Post
    First off, are we talking about all drugs or just one in particular?
    All drugs.


    Next part, within poorer households, what would prevent families from investing in drugs (Trust me this happens all the time, especially in the LA district) and not into their kids.
    You mean, what would stop people from doing more drugs? They'd be legal and available by prescription. It wouldn't get people off drugs, but no one would be killed over them, either. And the price would certainly fall, so people might be able to maintain better. Work would be easier to find, too.


    Three, what would legalization do to make more people want to rehabilitate?
    What would stop people from taking bad drugs? I don't see how legalization will cure these issues.
    Nothing will stop drug use. That is certain. If we know that much, though, why cause all the misery that our Drug War has? They've decriminalized pretty much everything in Portugal, and their rates of use have stayed steady, but infections and deaths due to hard drug use have fallen dramatically, and they are obviously spending less tax money on prosecutions. Their society is functioning perfectly well.


    Itís quite noticeable if you can pull out any crime trends, that show violence crime rates, what you will see is that since the initiation of the war on drugs violent crime has gone down. Could this be a coincidence? Absolutely, there could be other reasons that I may have overlooked, but the statistic is still there, this is solid.
    Your statistics are wrong. Violent crime rates went up significantly in the 1980s and peaked around 1989-1991, then fell. They also went back up in the 2000s, now are starting to fall again. Violent crime is higher now than it was in the early-1960s, before the Drug War. Violent crime increased during Prohibition, and it increased in the '80s when they stepped up the Drug War and sentencing for offenders (also crack brought in a lot of new, poor drug abusers in inner cities).


    My last part was a theory floating around that having drugs illegal creates another underground way of making money, and compared to other illegal activities is not as harmful (kidnapping, assassination, trafficking, etc).
    But it's not just drugs. It's murder, corruption, border jumping, prostitution, beatings, overdoses, infections, and stealing to get money for a fix. It's a blight that is directly correlated to illegality.


    Again not my view but I was just curious on your thoughts on this last piece. A yay or nah response was what I was looking for with the last part.
    Fair enough.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #289
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uberrogo View Post
    So did you remember correctly?
    I am nine and ninety per cent sure I did.
    I did not pay much attention to the report at the time.
    There is bias in it. Deplorable.

    Statistics is as politically handy as it goes. Politics is the art of mischief.
    Do not be fooled.

    The veg thing is not accurate either.
    It is not the thing I originally read.

    My mother has Alzheimer's. They say you inherit it.
    It is therefore I pointed out this memory thing.
    It does not mean I have it yet. Maybe never.

  10. #290
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post


    Again, it has nothing to do with not helping those who need it. It has everything to do with teaching responsibility, rather than rewarding irresponsibility. I never advocated pulling the rug out from anyone, only to encourage responsible family planning for recipients of government money. If you are taking from the citizens, I feel the citizens have a right to set a standard that you must uphold in order to receive that money. It's not so far fetched.

    Europe doesn't have overcrowded jails because you don't prosecute petty crimes and victimless crimes like we do here. It's not because you hand out money. NYC has a 3 strikes and you're out rule. If you are convicted of any 3 offenses (which is amazingly easy for minorities here), you are sent to prison for LIFE. Yes, get busted for smoking pot - prison for life.

    Rich envy the poor? Ok, nice blanket statement - since you obviously know nothing about me. But I can say this - I lived in Europe for quite a while and the semi-socialist systems in most of those countries are dramatically different than the welfare programs here. You are comparing apples and oranges. Whatever, let's agree to disagree. See ya.
    You misjudged me. It is my fault.
    There is a lot of truth in what you say.
    It is not about agreement or disagreement.

    If a doctor gives you pot or speed, it is all right.
    Buy it on the street, you might spend your life in jail.

    I do not get it.
    Do you get it?
    How it is possible things get out of hand so bad?

    An aristocratic cynic says: It is the price of democracy. Plain and simple.
    Idiots come first.

    An error in logic.
    Truth does not side.

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