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  1. #271
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I think you're missing the obvious point. She has children solely so others can take care of them and she collects the money. She obviously does not care about the well being of those kids, which is apparent to me since I see them regularly. I work very hard to support myself, and in essence, her and her children. What you are suggesting we do is what we already do - throw money at the problem. That woman's mother is on welfare and she grew up on welfare. I'll keep you posted about the children.

    And if you really believe that those kids stand a chance, you are sorely mistaken. I think that implying that those who want to fix the root problem and break this cycle don't care about children or people is ridiculous. I think suggesting that we just let another generation fall through the cracks is mean spirited. I think pretending that these kids will ever learn from a non-existent role model is naive. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away and is only doing a great disservice to these kids with no other options. Just saying...

    ptgatsby: It doesn't matter if you think it's not possible - the fact is that it is very possible. I don't know how it's done, or else I would probably do it myself!! (just kidding of course...)
    I was not at any stage missing the point.
    I know how you think.

    And what is the alternative? To stop handing out the money?
    If you do, the children end in jail before they grow up.
    And what do they learn there?

    There is no alternative but to hand out the money. Hand it out, and do it gladly.

    We in Europe do not have your massive prison gulag archipelago.
    Why?
    You know why. We hand out the dough.

    Why to envy the mother? You are a lot better off than she is.
    Why do the rich envy the poor? I do not get it.

    Take a hike. Watch the kids play happy on the street.
    Do not take the food out of their mouths.

    Because if you do,
    you add to the crime and to the drugs and to the prostitution and to the all out misery.
    We have seen all of that in South America.
    Did the Churches help there?
    They did.
    Was it enough?
    Not by a long shot.

  2. #272
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I was not at any stage missing the point.
    I know how you think.

    And what is the alternative? To stop handing out the money?
    If you do, the children end in jail before they grow up.
    And what do they learn there?

    There is no alternative but to hand out the money. Hand it out, and do it gladly.

    We in Europe do not have your massive prison gulag archipelago.
    Why?
    You know why. We hand out the dough.

    Why to envy the mother? You are a lot better off than she is.
    Why do the rich envy the poor? I do not get it.

    Take a hike. Watch the kids play happy on the street.
    Do not take the food out of their mouths.

    Because if you do,
    you add to the crime and to the drugs and to the prostitution and to the all out misery.
    We have seen all of that in South America.
    Did the Churches help there?
    They did.
    Was it enough?
    Not by a long shot.


    Again, it has nothing to do with not helping those who need it. It has everything to do with teaching responsibility, rather than rewarding irresponsibility. I never advocated pulling the rug out from anyone, only to encourage responsible family planning for recipients of government money. If you are taking from the citizens, I feel the citizens have a right to set a standard that you must uphold in order to receive that money. It's not so far fetched.

    Europe doesn't have overcrowded jails because you don't prosecute petty crimes and victimless crimes like we do here. It's not because you hand out money. NYC has a 3 strikes and you're out rule. If you are convicted of any 3 offenses (which is amazingly easy for minorities here), you are sent to prison for LIFE. Yes, get busted for smoking pot - prison for life.

    Rich envy the poor? Ok, nice blanket statement - since you obviously know nothing about me. But I can say this - I lived in Europe for quite a while and the semi-socialist systems in most of those countries are dramatically different than the welfare programs here. You are comparing apples and oranges. Whatever, let's agree to disagree. See ya.

  3. #273
    Senior Member cogdecree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I was not at any stage missing the point.
    I know how you think.

    And what is the alternative? To stop handing out the money?
    If you do, the children end in jail before they grow up.
    And what do they learn there?

    There is no alternative but to hand out the money. Hand it out, and do it gladly.

    We in Europe do not have your massive prison gulag archipelago.
    Why?
    You know why. We hand out the dough.

    Why to envy the mother? You are a lot better off than she is.
    Why do the rich envy the poor? I do not get it.

    Take a hike. Watch the kids play happy on the street.
    Do not take the food out of their mouths.

    Because if you do,
    you add to the crime and to the drugs and to the prostitution and to the all out misery.
    We have seen all of that in South America.
    Did the Churches help there?
    They did.
    Was it enough?
    Not by a long shot.
    Then keep such in Europe, I am by no means advocating any change in Europe, I do not need or want Europe to adopt my ideas, remember this thread initiated as an attack against republicans. Not sure if I gave out some sort of impression of wanting to change Europe.

    I never understod why people from other countries give us so much flak for our fiscal system, when its indefinately our choice, in Europe you guys could make a law that cashiers earn the same as doctors, whos business, your business.

    If you like social democracies, go to Europe, if you don't, go to the US.

    You also fail to examine other sources of social and fiscal difference which may cause such. In your mind, the "cure" is a heavier welfare state. Is that the only thing that separeates the US and the EU? Nothing else unique between these two groups, nothing at all? Systems are more complex that what you are suggesting.

    Though if you want to look at crime statistics comparing Europe to the US, the US has a higher murder rate (specific violent crime), but Europe has much higher overall violent crime rate. (If we throw Japan in the mix they have a low murder and violent crime rate, but a much higher suicide rate).

    What this shows is different way each group releases pain. (some theories suggest that crime is even necessary)

    Also if the EU is the picture of paradise, than I'm more than ever solid in my decision, happy Brits are far and few inbetween.

    I'll turn this one around on you as well. Lets look at Africa, several countries in Africa have indeed adopted European fiscal systems, and have failed using such causing the degredation of standards and violent crime. Are social democracies an inworkable system?

    Basically, Using third world counties as examples isn't going to help your case.

  4. #274
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maliafee View Post
    Actually, you're incorrect. I am not pro-choice based on speculation. I agree with you completely, except that I think rape is more devastating than you *don't* suggest.
    A typing error on my part, which could have been tipped from "or anything at all easy." My apologies for that.

    Your entire argument is the premise of women's emotions and their ways of dealing with emotional damage. How is that not speculating, since all women are different?

    Abortion is NOT a healing process, it is itself traumatizing. Your words make it sound like abortion is this great relief for women. I'm sure some felt this way, but for most, its a terrible decision. Women in that situation are in a catch 22, damned if you do, and damned if you don't. It's not at all a better or wiser solution to keeping the baby. To call the decision of keeping the baby bullshit is stunning. It is an option, as it should be, but the argument shouldn't be that it's an option to help the woman heal. It's an option for the woman's safety and privacy only, because abortion itself is terrible.
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  5. #275
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    They also don't have a militant Drug War going on that imprisons minorities at an unconscionable rate.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #276
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    The difference between minority drug offenders and everybody else. Everybody else has a safety net from getting caught.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  7. #277
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    Now, I may get pilloried for even asking this... but is it even remotely possible that minorities in the US actually commit more drug crimes than other groups do?

    Please understand, this is only a hypothetical question for consideration. I'm not saying it's what I believe.

  8. #278
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    The difference between minority drug offenders and everybody else. Everybody else has a safety net from getting caught.
    This statement comes from a conservative. Republican? Why? Because even republicans are aware of (both) possabilities.

    I was thinking out loud. Pardon me.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  9. #279
    Senior Member cogdecree's Avatar
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    I initially made a comment responding to the topic of drugs, I deleted it, since I'm not sure how strict these boards are, when it comes to derailing topics. Since you guys are continueing (and a confidence boost from goodstain), I'm guessing such a rule is lax?

    Anyways, a recap of what I said earlier, location (like being near mexico), status (class and income), and availability (can't do drugs if there are few to pass them out) effect drug crimes, hence why states near Mexico (Cuba contributes as well) are on the top of the list when it comes to drug usage.

    The Mexican mafia (now the most powerful and organized gang within the US) has operation bases in New York, Virginia, and Florida (originated in CA).

    This is a big piece of the puzzle, when considering drug trends within the US.

  10. #280
    Senior Member uberrogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    pure mercury. My dear friend, you are being unfair.

    After all, I did take the precaution.. I started my post:
    If I remember correctly..

    I said: If I remember correctly, there was a structural error in the statistics results.

    Having said this, I said:
    The claim is unsure at best, probably plain wrong.

    I do not like to repeat myself, so I did not repeat the obvious:
    If I remember correctly.

    Okay. Here goes. Be my guest:

    If I remember correctly, there was a structural error in the statistics results.
    If I remember correctly, the claim is unsure at best, probably plain wrong.

    Happy now?

    You provide the original post about this thingie. Lay it out on the screen, not just give the link.
    Because I cannot. I saw it only fleetingly for a few seconds, but long enough to spot the error. I wouldn't know where to find it. It was not me who brought this thing up. You did.

    Then I tell you where the error lies. Trust wildcat. If you can.
    So did you remember correctly?
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