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  1. #261
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maliafee View Post
    Should the mother's life be ruined because of rape? You try going through 9 months of pregnancy due to a violent sex crime. The sex should never have occured...
    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Most anti-abortionists would understand and allow an exception for an abortion in the case of incest or rape.
    +1 Jock.

    To expand a bit, I agree with Risen, it's not a matter of what should or should not be. It's a matter of reality. The reality is, innocent people go to jail, the slacker gets raises, and women are forced to be pregnant from rape.

    To consider someone's life ruined by a baby is going a bit far, imo. By your standards, the woman's already 'ruined' and 'damaged' for life because of the rape itself.. the baby, to you, being an unfortunate burden and a 9 month long reminder. I don't think you should blame the unborn kid for an asshole's sins.

    I know for a fact a woman's life isn't ruined from rape. It's unfortunate. A memory you wouldn't shake for your entire life. But it is a fact of life. Women get raped. They also move on, and lift themselves up from the dirt when it settles.

    I think it's a bit insulting to call women ruined here because of that. I think it's even more insulting to blame the kid-product of the situation as well.
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  2. #262
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    Some women don't recover from rape; many commit suicide or are permanently psychologically damaged. Yes, many handle it, but most are never the same and it's not insulting to say "ruined" in this context because I wasn't saying that a woman's life is necessarily ruined by the rape only, but that forcing her to have a baby after that (if she's pregnant) would add miles of trauma.

    Carrying a rape-inseminated child to full term and then going through the horrors of giving up your baby? This is the answer? Absolute bullshit.

    There is a reason why a woman's body often will abort a very early fetus without anyone's consent. It has to be done, nature wills it so. And there are cases where the woman should be able to make this tough but necessary decision.

    A woman's body is forever changed by pregnancy, and for many it is a real ordeal. To ask a woman who has been raped to go through 9 months of this? She can keep it, and then deal with that twisted psychology as she tries to raise it without any bad feelings (and with no help from a father), or she can give it up (which is psychologically VERY difficult to do).

    I find the logic that allows the above to seem okay very questionable and devoid of any influence of emotion. That kind of thinking that values a fetus over a full-grown woman is the kind that is incredibly insulting to women.

    And no one is blaming the "kid" product of the situation. It simply should never have been conceived. I don't see men weeping for all the tossed out sperm that could have been... Virtually anyone will be glad to have been born after 20 years of life, but some fetuses have to be aborted before they are ever aware of it. Nature does it, and women can choose to do it, and it's not any of the men's goddamn business.



    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    +1 Jock.

    To expand a bit, I agree with Risen, it's not a matter of what should or should not be. It's a matter of reality. The reality is, innocent people go to jail, the slacker gets raises, and women are forced to be pregnant from rape.

    To consider someone's life ruined by a baby is going a bit far, imo. By your standards, the woman's already 'ruined' and 'damaged' for life because of the rape itself.. the baby, to you, being an unfortunate burden and a 9 month long reminder. I don't think you should blame the unborn kid for an asshole's sins.

    I know for a fact a woman's life isn't ruined from rape. It's unfortunate. A memory you wouldn't shake for your entire life. But it is a fact of life. Women get raped. They also move on, and lift themselves up from the dirt when it settles.

    I think it's a bit insulting to call women ruined here because of that. I think it's even more insulting to blame the kid-product of the situation as well.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    They also lead to high quality-of-life, especially in Northern Europe.
    How do you know that the high quality of life wouldn't exist in those countries in the absence of prominent social engineering? It may be that such programs are actually a damper on quality of life, and those societies are succeeding in spite of them.

  4. #264
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Don't you think that calling Obama a commie is too much?

    It is interesting how people for US are throwing this word around just like that. Trust me, Obama is very far from real communism.
    obviously i dont think he's actually a communist. its undeniable though that his goals are not in the name of pragmatism (as some of the people trotting out Europe statistics have been trying to claim).



    Obama's goal is "fairness" at ANY cost.

  5. #265
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Before I go on to reply. I thought I should make this clear, since I'm getting an unnecessary amount of feedback from my universal healthcare comment.

    I am Not talking about the socialist perspective of universal healthcare when I say that term. When I say universal healthcare, I mean the current system of what's universally given to every person in the US. Currently, if I'm not mistaken that's emergency care. You cannot be denied the right to live, or be denied treatment at all for anything really that you need, based on your pay.

    Beyond that, the system is that your quality of life is in your own hands. You work hard, and pay insurance for as much or as little as you need to get the job done.

    My point was that you have to pay for your health either way. The only question is whether you think it's better to pay for everyone's healthcare, or whether you pay for your own healthcare. There are many pros and cons to either system, but my argument was to state that the US is not these heartless people that make women die of pregnancy complications, or don't re-attach arms, or anything like that. You have a universal standard to allow your human right to live and thrive. The quality of your life beyond that is within your own hands, leaning on the side of self-reliance, a reoccuring standard in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by maliafee View Post
    Some women don't recover from rape; many commit suicide or are permanently psychologically damaged. ... but most are never the same and it's not insulting to say "ruined" in this context because I wasn't saying that a woman's life is necessarily ruined by the rape only, but that forcing her to have a baby after that (if she's pregnant) would add miles of trauma.

    Carrying a rape-inseminated child to full term and then going through the horrors of giving up your baby? This is the answer? Absolute bullshit.

    There is a reason why a woman's body often will abort a very early fetus without anyone's consent. It has to be done, nature wills it so. And there are cases where the woman should be able to make this tough but necessary decision.

    A woman's body is forever changed by pregnancy, and for many it is a real ordeal. To ask a woman who has been raped to go through 9 months of this? She can keep it, and then deal with that twisted psychology as she tries to raise it without any bad feelings (and with no help from a father), or she can give it up (which is psychologically VERY difficult to do).

    I find the logic that allows the above to seem okay very questionable and devoid of any influence of emotion. That kind of thinking that values a fetus over a full-grown woman is the kind that is incredibly insulting to women.

    And no one is blaming the "kid" product of the situation. It simply should never have been conceived. I don't see men weeping for all the tossed out sperm that could have been... Virtually anyone will be glad to have been born after 20 years of life, but some fetuses have to be aborted before they are ever aware of it. Nature does it, and women can choose to do it, and it's not any of the men's goddamn business.
    How about I interject with my stance as well: I am Pro-choice entirely, and one of the biggest reasons that I am is for the safety and privacy of women who have had these terrible things happen to them such as rape.

    It is, however, absolutely insulting to call the child in any way a ruined, damaged kid. You are saying that when you attach that negative light on the kid. The child is always, always indifferent. The woman will react to the child in different ways, and many may not keep the baby.. but to speculate and say that all women are damaged, that many women are ruined and traumatized by the child, is ridiculous.

    Each woman is her own self. The main goal of pro-choice is the safety of women when they abort. Not about what's emotionally 'better' for them. I would think it'd be just as traumatizing to kill something that never did anything wrong to begin with just because the woman put a negative tag on it's head. It's not about what's more emotionally stable for the woman, all women are different. It's about the safety and privacy ONLY.
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  6. #266
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    pure mercury. My dear friend, you are being unfair.

    After all, I did take the precaution.. I started my post:
    If I remember correctly..

    I said: If I remember correctly, there was a structural error in the statistics results.

    Having said this, I said:
    The claim is unsure at best, probably plain wrong.

    I do not like to repeat myself, so I did not repeat the obvious:
    If I remember correctly.

    Okay. Here goes. Be my guest:

    If I remember correctly, there was a structural error in the statistics results.
    If I remember correctly, the claim is unsure at best, probably plain wrong.

    Happy now?

    You provide the original post about this thingie. Lay it out on the screen, not just give the link.
    Because I cannot. I saw it only fleetingly for a few seconds, but long enough to spot the error. I wouldn't know where to find it. It was not me who brought this thing up. You did.

    Then I tell you where the error lies. Trust wildcat. If you can.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Before I go on to reply. I thought I should make this clear, since I'm getting an unnecessary amount of feedback from my universal healthcare comment.

    I am Not talking about the socialist perspective of universal healthcare when I say that term. When I say universal healthcare, I mean the current system of what's universally given to every person in the US. Currently, if I'm not mistaken that's emergency care. You cannot be denied the right to live, or be denied treatment at all for anything really that you need, based on your pay.

    Beyond that, the system is that your quality of life is in your own hands. You work hard, and pay insurance for as much or as little as you need to get the job done.

    My point was that you have to pay for your health either way. The only question is whether you think it's better to pay for everyone's healthcare, or whether you pay for your own healthcare. There are many pros and cons to either system, but my argument was to state that the US is not these heartless people that make women die of pregnancy complications, or don't re-attach arms, or anything like that. You have a universal standard to allow your human right to live and thrive. The quality of your life beyond that is within your own hands, leaning on the side of self-reliance, a reoccuring standard in the US.



    How about I interject with my stance as well: I am Pro-choice entirely, and one of the biggest reasons that I am is for the safety and privacy of women who have had these terrible things happen to them such as rape.

    It is, however, absolutely insulting to call the child in any way a ruined, damaged kid. You are saying that when you attach that negative light on the kid. The child is always, always indifferent. The woman will react to the child in different ways, and many may not keep the baby.. but to speculate and say that all women are damaged, that many women are ruined and traumatized by the child, is ridiculous.

    Each woman is her own self. The main goal of pro-choice is the safety of women when they abort. Not about what's emotionally 'better' for them. I would think it'd be just as traumatizing to kill something that never did anything wrong to begin with just because the woman put a negative tag on it's head. It's not about what's more emotionally stable for the woman, all women are different. It's about the safety and privacy ONLY.
    OF COURSE the child has nothing to do with it. My point is that it is very, very difficult for the woman, in most cases.

    All women ARE damaged by rape they go through, though. How can anyone suggest otherwise?

    And yes, many women would be severely traumatized by having a child as a result of a rape.

    Ruined is possibly an exaggeration, I'll give you that.

  8. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    If I remember correctly, there was a structural error in the statistics results. The claim is unsure at best, probably plain wrong.
    Never, never believe statistics.

    Go out and take a hike. Get some fresh air. Spring is on the way.
    Everything I've read, says that the claim is true. Where did you learn about the structural error?

    There are two theories I've heard for this:
    1) Repblicans are more likely to give to their churches and christian aid organization abraod, boosting their charity rate.
    2) Because of their belief that individual, and not the government, should be the source of aid, they donate more.

    Even a board for vegitarians (usually associated w/ liberals) has this information on it.
    Lower-income, religious Republicans more likely to give to charity, donate blood - VeggieBoards - Vegetarian Forum

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  9. #269
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maliafee View Post
    OF COURSE the child has nothing to do with it. My point is that it is very, very difficult for the woman, in most cases.

    All women ARE damaged by rape they go through, though. How can anyone suggest otherwise?

    And yes, many women would be severely traumatized by having a child as a result of a rape.

    Ruined is possibly an exaggeration, I'll give you that.
    I never claimed it to be difficult, or devastating, or at all anything easy.

    Damage isn't always permanent. Scars aren't always considered mars on the human body. It's just as easily argued that scars are mars that have healed and been recovered. Remnants will remain, but how often someone looks at that scar is very personal and individualistic.

    Rape is a marring process, but the fact is, how ruined you stay is entirely individualistic. I find it insulting to think all women are damaged and ruined by rape. I think it's insulting to say that women are so selfish that they're not at all traumatized by the abortion of a rape baby in comparison to having it.

    You're prochoice because of your speculation. It's better for you to be pro-choice because the goal of pro-choice is the ability to have a choice. You're saying abortion is always a solution. I say no, it's not always a solution at all, but it's better to have it legal for the safety of those who need that option.

    Abortion is not the answer to rape-related pregnancy. It's not at all a cure to a bad situation, and you make it sound like it is.

    To edit: The first sentence was meant to read "I never claimed it to be not difficult, or devastating, or at all anything easy." The sentence in it's original form doesn't make sense and was a typing error.
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  10. #270
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    Actually, you're incorrect. I am not pro-choice based on speculation. I agree with you completely, except that I think rape is more devastating than you *don't* suggest.


    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I never claimed it to be difficult, or devastating, or at all anything easy.

    Damage isn't always permanent. Scars aren't always considered mars on the human body. It's just as easily argued that scars are mars that have healed and been recovered. Remnants will remain, but how often someone looks at that scar is very personal and individualistic.

    Rape is a marring process, but the fact is, how ruined you stay is entirely individualistic. I find it insulting to think all women are damaged and ruined by rape. I think it's insulting to say that women are so selfish that they're not at all traumatized by the abortion of a rape baby in comparison to having it.

    You're prochoice because of your speculation. It's better for you to be pro-choice because the goal of pro-choice is the ability to have a choice. You're saying abortion is always a solution. I say no, it's not always a solution at all, but it's better to have it legal for the safety of those who need that option.

    Abortion is not the answer to rape-related pregnancy. It's not at all a cure to a bad situation, and you make it sound like it is.

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