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  1. #161
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Here's what I don't understand. Why is it a matter of wonder about why "nice" people would be ANY political persuasion, except maybe Nazi? I happen to be a registered Democrat, not because I agree with every Democratic party platform but because it's the closest description of many imperfect choices. Also, my favored candidates tend to be Democrats so if I want to vote for them in primaries I need to be D. Now, Risen is probably polar opposite to me politically but there's no question in my mind he's a decent guy and I've had a lot of fun talking to him on vent. So we disagree, pretty strongly even, about political issues. Why does that mean "niceness" is at stake? I just don't get that cross-pollination at all.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #162
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    The problem that I have with a more true libertarian philosophy is that, while it seems to work well up front, it tends to devolve, because the goal of pretty much any business enterprise is to gather economic power (money) to oneself. That's not bad in principle, and can serve as a motivating factor to provide better goods and services and innovation to customers (a good thing for everyone). However... never forget that the goal isn't to provide innovation, goods, OR services. It's to accumulate money. And at some point, it becomes easier to use the power you've got to accumulate more, rather than to compete on merit. Is it easier to spend money making a better product, or simply buy legislation and marketing to convince people that it's a good thing to give you more money?

    And in the extreme cases you wind up with Standard Oil or the Bell system, monopolies that aren't accountable to the people that they're ostensibly serving, that can extract pretty much however much profit they can get away with, without providing better service. Government is really the only entity that is (nominally, at least - although it often doesn't feel like it) accountable to the people with the power to regulate these situations. That's what boggles me about the libertarian viewpoint... true competition *depends* upon regulation - not the lack of it.

    And that's even ignoring the investment bank risky-investments-that-look-great-on-paper-and-if-we-lose-we'll-get-public-funds-because-we're-too-big-to-fail thing.

    If you're going to tout competition... you have to also tout rules that continue to make it a *fair* competition.
    The libertarian viewpoint is one that involves limited governmental intervention. Once basic (and I mean basic) rules are set up, people should be able to live their lives in relative peace. If we have rules governing monopolies, then what you stated shouldn't be a problem.

    But it's important to remember that libertarians aren't gunning only for financial freedoms, but also personal ones. And along with that comes personal responsibility. The RP seems to interfere with personal freedoms and the DP seems to interfere with personal responsibilities.

  3. #163
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Because keeping minorities in an unending state of feeling "oppressed" enables the political left to count on the minority vote in perpetuity. That is why liberals generally oppose welfare reform, and why it took the implicit threat of the mid-term election to get Clinton to pass some.
    Are you sure it's not because the political left, however misguided, actually believes minorities are still being oppressed in numerous ways?

    I mean, how do you explain things like 70% of drug-related convictions on black people when they comprise 12% of the country? I don't like reverse discrimination any more than you do, and I know that leftist policy can occasionally result in that, but it's naive to pretend that systemic racism (and other forms of discrimination) no longer exist.

    btw, to whoever said the right understands the left better than vice versa: I don't think so. The word "conservative" hasn't been turned into a national bogeyman yet, but we unfortunately can't say the same for "liberal." Turn on your radio or flip the TV over to Faux News some time--conservatives absolutely do not understand the left at all; they've done everything in their power to demonize liberalism. Funny how you don't hear much "OMG CONSERVATIVES HATE AMERICA" from the left in the media. Sure, you still get plenty of "Republicans are stupid", but that's par for course in politics--it's just funny that anyone would suggest that the right is more understanding of its political opponents than the left. How silly.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Are you sure it's not because the political left, however misguided, actually believes minorities are still being oppressed in numerous ways?

    I mean, how do you explain things like 70% of drug-related convictions on black people when they comprise 12% of the country? I don't like reverse discrimination any more than you do, and I know that leftist policy can occasionally result in that, but it's naive to pretend that systemic racism (and other forms of discrimination) no longer exist.

    btw, to whoever said the right understands the left better than vice versa: I don't think so. The word "conservative" hasn't been turned into a national bogeyman yet, but we unfortunately can't say the same for "liberal." Turn on your radio or flip the TV over to Faux News some time--conservatives absolutely do not understand the left at all; they've done everything in their power to demonize liberalism. Funny how you don't hear much "OMG CONSERVATIVES HATE AMERICA" from the left in the media. Sure, you still get plenty of "Republicans are stupid", but that's par for course in politics--it's just funny that anyone would suggest that the right is more understanding of its political opponents than the left. How silly.
    /agree I've often chalked up Affirmative Action to a necessary, temporary evil. I don't like forced diversity any more than the next person, but I suspect the issue of when to end it is more important than the issue of should it have begun.

    I had a home-made bumper sticker on my car for the longest: Faux News.
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  5. #165
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Are you sure it's not because the political left, however misguided, actually believes minorities are still being oppressed in numerous ways?
    No doubt because they're doing some of the oppressing themselves. I've counted numerous Dems among the most racist people I've met. It's not just a Republican thing. They often don't even notice it in themselves, even on this board.

    The necessary evils they propound are necessary in the view of many of these Dems in to placate the large underclass, which they deem beneath them. Luckily for them, the Repubs make the Dems' job all too easy by welcoming stupid wingnuts and bigots.
    Ti (43); Ne (41.8); Te (33.7); Fi (30.5); Ni (27.5); Se (24.7); Si (21.5); Fe (17.3)
    The More You Know the Less You Need. - Aboriginal Saying

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    "Republican" and "liberal" are not things people wanted to be called right now. "Conservative" is still OK, as are "Democrat" and, depending on where you are, "progressive."
    I am a liberal.











    Just playing, but I am a democrat. Voted for Obama in 08 and will do so again in 2012

  7. #167
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I think many of the old-school Republicans have jumped ship to the Libertarians. Some are hanging onto the Republican label because the party is still slightly more politically viable than Libertarian party but I don't know how long that will last.
    I think this is a little exaggerated. Maybe increasing numbers of people are doing so, but not "many," unless I haven't been paying attention (possible).
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  8. #168
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogdecree View Post
    I find that everyone has a different definition of what neoconservatives stand for to help justify their own beliefs, for or against.
    Their actions have spoken quite well for them.

    1) Tough on crime

    But not exactly smart about it considering the cost to jail over one percent of the population, largely for smoking joints. Just how tough is it to execute innocent people?

    2) Self reliance

    Good thing so much industry has been exported and big business has made it very difficult for family businesses. It must be easy to be self reliant if born with a silver spoon in your mouth as opposed to working at walmart because that is the only option.

    3) Family values

    Newt Gingrich, Mark Foley, Ted Haggard, Larry Craig, Bob Allen, Glenn Murphy Jr., Trent Lott, John McCain, Sarah Palin, etc might contradict that a bit. Oh wait, isnt that much of the gop leadership over the last 15 years?

    4) Strong capitalism

    Obviously bailing out investment institutions during reagan and bush IIs terms makes a solid case for that.

    5) Strong defenses

    Thats right, under republican control of the govt, 4 hijacked planes hit 3 buildings on the same day while the airforce was training for exactly that kind of possibility....in canada.

  9. #169
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    I think this is a little exaggerated. Maybe increasing numbers of people are doing so, but not "many," unless I haven't been paying attention (possible).
    Yeah, the rest are going to the Constitution Party *shudder*...

  10. #170
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post

    2) Self reliance

    Good thing so much industry has been exported and big business has made it very difficult for family businesses. It must be easy to be self reliant if born with a silver spoon in your mouth as opposed to working at walmart because that is the only option.
    One minor note: the government is the reason why small businesses are failing, not big corporations. Increasing regulations, ridiculous taxes, permit and licensing "fees", red tape, penalties for minor infractions etc... Believe me, I know this from first hand experience. If government was less involved, people could actually be more self reliant, but I digress. I agree with much of the other stuff you wrote, though.

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