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  1. #21
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This is the same old, "Moral equivalence argument", that was trotted out during the Cold War by the Communists and their fellow travellers.

    But why should we be surprised? As Islamism continues in the same totalitarian tradition as Communism and National Socialism.

    But we should remember that today they come for the women and children, and tomorrow they come for us.
    Note that I was only offering an overview of the male supremacist belief system from the fundamentalist Islamic perspective.

    I said nothing to justify the moral integrity of said belief.

    That doesn't mean I don't think it's ridiculous, but I'm forced to admit that my opinion is also ultimately subjective.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #22
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I don't know about you, but my ancestors were definitely still reppin' some pretty whack social policy, say, three-hundred years ago.
    As late as 1781 MA punished adultery with "stripes", public whipping (and the branding of the thumb with the letter A) and/or a hefty fine. The law allowing for this sort of punishment stayed on the books into the 1800s but after 1781 wasn't enacted upon anyone.

    MA colonial law allowed for the death penalty for adultery and so before the stripes were applied, the accused had to sit on the gallows with a rope around their neck as reminder that their crime carried the death penalty but the colony was being merciful and not persuing that.

    In this colonial law, adultery was usually only punished in this fashion if a man tresspassed with another man's wife (a threat to the male's control over his household), if he consorted with tavern harlots, then his wife might divorce him (where he'd be unable to remarry and required to support her the rest of her life, but she'd be free of his authority) but he wouldn't likely be punished with stripes on his back.

  3. #23
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    As late as 1781 MA punished adultery with "stripes", public whipping (and the branding of the thumb with the letter A) and/or a hefty fine. The law allowing for this sort of punishment stayed on the books into the 1800s but after 1781 wasn't enacted upon anyone.

    MA colonial law allowed for the death penalty for adultery and so before the stripes were applied, the accused had to sit on the gallows with a rope around their neck as reminder that their crime carried the death penalty but the colony was being merciful and not persuing that.

    In this colonial law, adultery was usually only punished in this fashion if a man tresspassed with another man's wife (a threat to the male's control over his household), if he consorted with tavern harlots, then his wife might divorce him (where he'd be unable to remarry and required to support her the rest of her life, but she'd be free of his authority) but he wouldn't likely be punished with stripes on his back.
    Ohhh, those trixy tavern harlots. They'll get ya every time!

    But yeah, good examples of nonsensical social ideals that (hopefully) go away with time. The Middle East will get there, but it's going to be a very gradual process.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #24
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Lol, the Russians had two bags of tricks: brutality against the Afghan population, and trying to win over the population through more benevolent means to make searching out the enemy an easier task. The U.S. is obliged to only use one of those methods (figure it out). Russia tried both and still couldn't win.
    That and the CIA training the mujahadeen and giving them stinger missiles and what not probably didn't work in out in the Soviets' favor.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    I'm curious if western culture has ever taken such an aggressive stance towards women. Middle-eastern culture seems to have such violent conviction to keep things as they are. Maybe it's a backlash owing to western influence.
    Yes, I agree completely. They are very reactionary to "Westernization" and even any HINT towards Westernization, that, they retaliate by holding strong to their 'beliefs'. The addition of extremists in power positions skew such practices of beliefs to become grossly inhumane.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Gosh, it's all our fault.
    [....]
    But in reality it is the confluence of our narcissism and their propaganda.
    Was it not you who spoke of denying a black/white world? So, why then are you so extremely irrational (albeit, childishly sarcastic) to think of fault in terms of 'all' or 'none'? How about there being fault from all sides that have had their hands soiled in the political history of the Middle-East?

    You talk of propaganda on THEIR part? When you make statements such as this?:

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The British tried and failed.

    And the Russians tried and failed.

    And now the Americans are planning to do a deal with the Taliban.
    The Russians 'tried to help' them? America is "going" to help (because they've never intervened previously? News to me). Either you are ignorant to the political history or willfully ignoring it, which would equate to propaganda on your part.

    Huh....

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Lol, the Russians had two bags of tricks: brutality against the Afghan population, and trying to win over the population through more benevolent means to make searching out the enemy an easier task. The U.S. is obliged to only use one of those methods (figure it out). Russia tried both and still couldn't win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    That and the CIA training the mujahadeen and giving them stinger missiles and what not probably didn't work in out in the Soviets' favor.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And it is our self hatred that plays into the hands of those who hate us.
    Self-hatred will need to take a backseat to the international backlash that America & Co.* may soon face.

    At present, they're the 'super-power' and have a lot of control over global economic state, so, there are plenty of nations who are quietly bidding their time.

    As young as America is, it has made a lot of enemies, who have stayed silent, waiting, for the first cracks to appear on the castle wall. You can bet they will be out to get their pound of flesh, when opportunity arises.

    Japan.
    Russia.
    Middle-East.
    China.
    India.
    Africa.

    Trust me, self-hate will look like peanuts if/when these countries/joined nations get the chance to take back their drop of blood.

    The Middle-East are just the first to start their retaliation (they should have thought longer about the consequences, and planning & implementation of it. It's very premature and haphazard, making it to look irrational...hence, why it's such a huge pile of mess). Not all the other countries/continent(s) will make such a rash decision/mess, when their time comes.

    * America & Co. - ass-lickers aka most apparent allies - Britain, Australia, Canada (Canada is the nice kid out of that bunch of international bullies)

    - If Obama is smart, as he seems to be, he'll start practicing diplomacy with these nations and start cutting ties with the scabs at its sides (allies like Britain).

  7. #27
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    But yeah, good examples of nonsensical social ideals that (hopefully) go away with time. The Middle East will get there, but it's going to be a very gradual process.
    ... They've been around for like 2,000 years, right? I don't think that mentality is going to 'go away' is the problem. Maybe a pessimistic view from someone who's seen their attitude, but they treat women like cattle, and they're pretty proud of their attitude.

    We still have men in America that are so sexist it's mind boggling. Why are we going to assume the Middle East will somehow "adjust" and "get better" eventually? That sounds more subjective than the original complaint of this being a cruel act and a step backwards.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    ... They've been around for like 2,000 years, right? I don't think that mentality is going to 'go away' is the problem.

    I have a feeling you know nothing of the history of Islam. You infer from what you have seen (little glimpse/time capture of PRESENT DAY Islam) on a whole timeline of history.

    Islam wasn't as radical and inhumane as it seems to be in present day. In history, at one time, it had one of the greatest empire.

    Islamic Rennaissance
    Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Crusades (and one of the greatest [fair, moral, just] leaders of history): Saladin
    Saladin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    ...just for a glimpse

  9. #29
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    ^ How does that prove it going away? Do you think the people will reform back into their glory days? Most people have a short memory, and yeah history repeats itself, but you're speculating as much as I am. I'm sure there are plenty of Islams that believe in the truer ways of the Quran, that respect their women and live good Islamic lives. But I'm not going to get my hopes up on the fact that they're going to change easily, if at all.

    If these laws being passed are any indication, I would say they're taking steps backwards (or forwards, depending on how you look at it now).
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    ^ How does that prove it going away?
    My counter to your point wasn't about the commentary on whether it will 'go away' or not...but, the implication of your OP that, Islam as been here for '2000 years', and that they've always been like that, (i.e., if they couldn't change in 2000 years, what makes you think they'll change now, as they've always had the view of treating women like cattle)

    They've been around for like 2,000 years, right? I don't think that mentality is going to 'go away' is the problem. Maybe a pessimistic view from someone who's seen their attitude, but they treat women like cattle, and they're pretty proud of their attitude.
    I wanted to correct that.

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