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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Just a hunch, but i'm startin to think m/p is playin devils advocate. Take note, both edahn and m/p do not post a mbti preferance label. Gonna guess ESTJ.

    Hell, could even be that i'm takin bait via devils advocate. Honestly, i've taken plenty of bait from XSTJ in the past.
    No, you're talking to your own type (and mine) .

  2. #42
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    No, you're talking to your own type (and mine) .
    Oh.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Waa waa. Stop crying.
    Not a tear being shed here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I think it's acceptable for a government to do things in the best interests of the people, and to require them to do things that they may not want to do.
    You do realize, don't you, that there is no end to "the best interests of the people"? If your government is committed to forcing citizens to do what's in their "best interest," there is no conceptual limit to how far that can go. Once you've done X, there's no reason not to do 2X, or 3X.

    Giving government a mandate to work for the good of the people is an absolutely sure ideological path to totalitarianism.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Taxing people in order to create social programs is also a restriction on your liberty, but it's the price you pay for living here.
    Oh really? Tell me, if you can, how many social programs is too many? How much government oversight is over the top? How much tax is confiscatory? Do these things even have limits in your mind?

    Leaving the debate over exactly where these limits should be for another day, I posit to you this concept only: There should be limits, at some point that represents a balance between public interest and individual prerogatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Whatever.
    Why drag her into this?

  4. #44
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    Go, right now, and buy "Capitalism and Freedom" by milton friedman. it should be required reading by anyone who thinks "individualism" is childish.

    1. mandatory service limits your freedom economically in the most obvious sense.
    2. the loss of economic freedom is a straight road to serfdom.
    3. there can be no democracy without economic freedom.
    4. without a democracy, how can you really call yourself free?
    I've heard this stuff before. Almost exactly this stuff.
    Let me skip my usually sophisticated demeanor and say fuck Milton Friedman. I hope that leaves no confusion about where I stand.

    I think his idea about the relationship between economic freedom and civil freedom is backwards (quite literally). Also, I'm not an advocate of anarchy, but you can have non-democratic anarchy that would probably grant more freedom than a democratic government, so there's at least one alternative answer to your last question.

    P.S: I do so love the relationship between Friedman and Pinochet.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #45
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Also, I'm not an advocate of anarchy, but you can have non-democratic anarchy that would probably grant more freedom than a democratic government
    Kinda like post soviet union Afganistan.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  6. #46
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Kinda like post soviet union Afganistan.
    Har har. It's not the only path.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #47
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post

    P.S: I do so love the relationship between Friedman and Pinochet.
    two options:

    a) he lets pinochet continue with rampant inflation, no economic growth and his totalitarian state. basically letting his idealism bar him from, IN THE LONG RUN, helping that country.

    b) he advices pinochet on what he can do to economically fix his broken country... so that maybe the people living there could have economic growth, less inflation and for the time being a totalitarian state.

    tell me which option sounds better?


    Also, I'm not an advocate of anarchy, but you can have non-democratic anarchy that would probably grant more freedom than a democratic government, so there's at least one alternative answer to your last question.
    the problem with anarchies is not that they arent free enough, the problem with them is that no one is enforcing any sense of property rights. You've fixed the problem of freedom by introducing another.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Kinda like post soviet union Afganistan.
    Wouldn't call that free. In fact, that proves the point that without a form of order and government to guarantee and protect the rights of the people (with the power to do so curtailed by the ability of the people to govern themselves), there is little freedom. With anarchy, you are more likely to be oppressed by other groups of people and subjected to all sorts of crimes. One could argue that this is just man expressing their anarchist freedom, but freedom is also exemption from oppression by others, which the government can work to guarantee through laws and law enforcement. Thus, anarchy does not mean more freedom.

    The more individuals in a society are able to govern themselves, the freer they are. The more government has to govern them to keep order, the more enslaved they are. There is a balance between self governance and governance by the state that hinges upon the responsibility and character of individuals in the society. A country in anarchy is not free because instead of centralized government oppression, or orderly self governance, there is relative chaos and nothing to stop the infringement on basic rights.

  9. #49
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I've heard this stuff before. Almost exactly this stuff.
    Let me skip my usually sophisticated demeanor and say fuck Milton Friedman. I hope that leaves no confusion about where I stand.

    I think his idea about the relationship between economic freedom and civil freedom is backwards (quite literally). Also, I'm not an advocate of anarchy, but you can have non-democratic anarchy that would probably grant more freedom than a democratic government, so there's at least one alternative answer to your last question.

    P.S: I do so love the relationship between Friedman and Pinochet.
    Which relationship might that be?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #50
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    two options:

    a) he lets pinochet continue with rampant inflation, no economic growth and his totalitarian state. basically letting his idealism bar him from, IN THE LONG RUN, helping that country.

    b) he advices pinochet on what he can do to economically fix his broken country... so that maybe the people living there could have economic growth, less inflation and for the time being a totalitarian state.

    tell me which option sounds better?
    My main point was that there seemed to be so little correlation between his economic policies and freedom in Chile, that it kind of hurts his own argument about the relationship between tha economic policy and increased freedom. And Friedman's argument that his economics utlimately softened up and dethroned Pinochet cannot be validated, and doesn't appear to have happened. It took quite a while, and dicators have a tendency to soften up with age anyhow.



    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    the problem with anarchies is not that they arent free enough, the problem with them is that no one is enforcing any sense of property rights. You've fixed the problem of freedom by introducing another.
    I'm wondering if I should run with your criticisms of anarchy to advocate socialism... Hmmmm...
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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