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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysterio View Post
    You do have a point about the 4th Amendment and the watering down of it by the war on drugs, not to mention the Patriot Act. The problem with this kind of paranoia about things like Obama’s “youth indoctrination camps” ...
    Well, let's make the civilian service corps ideologically neutral then, so we can discuss it apart from its being connected to so popular a president.

    What if W. had proposed this idea? What would you think of it then?

  2. #122
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I'm not saying this is the case, as I have not researched it enough, but I suspect these companies should've fallen by the wayside long ago, and were probably propped up in part by the government all this time allowing them to grow so large. The fact that they have been able to grow so huge and make the economy so dependent on their health, while at the same time being so close to collapse is suspicious as hell. I am GUESSING that these companies have been propped up by the government, allowing them to grow to this size, instead of them being taken down long ago when the effects wouldn't have been nearly so dire. That is essentially how capitalism goes. Huge companies are really supposed to fail with time so that these things don't happen (the way they are now). In fact, I'm quite confident the government added to the size of this ticking time bomb.
    What's good with libertarians and extreme ideologies, is the fact that they are very predictable.

    Libertarians have a definition of EVIL that serves for every purposes, and it is "Government". If something is wrong within this world, it must be the government, and only the government.

    The Government I told you!

    It simplifies every tasks.

    They think that since their theory is flawless, near perfection, the world has to adapt to it. It's only one way. Nobody told them that being pragmatic requires that they should rather adapt their theories to the real world.

    Ideologies are like "ready-to-wear thoughts". They are seductive because they give a firm, simple answer to every questions. Thus, you don't need to think by yourself, and for yourself. We may call that intellectual laziness, but hey! Ideologies are reassuring, conforting, they put the mind at rest. For many people, the mere idea that this world is in fact crazy, meaningless and basically unpredictable, is unbearable. It's a monstruous, blasphemous and intolerable thought. So in their own special ways, ideologies fulfill the religious slot, the need to believe even insane theories, because believing them is relieving and makes more sense than embracing the maelstrom and complexity of the ordinary daily life.

    It's always less painful to believe in something.

    Libertarians aren't an exception to this rule. We have another proof of that here.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #123
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    What's good with libertarians and extreme ideologies, is the fact that they are very predictable.

    Libertarians have a definition of EVIL that serves for every purposes, and it is "Government". If something is wrong within this world, it must be the government, and only the government.

    The Government I told you!

    It simplifies every tasks.

    They think that since their theory is flawless, near perfection, the world has to adapt to it. It's only one way. Nobody told them that being pragmatic requires that they should rather adapt their theories to the real world.

    Ideologies are like "ready-to-wear thoughts". They are seductive because they give a firm, simple answer to every questions. Thus, you don't need to think by yourself, and for yourself. We may call that intellectual laziness, but hey! Ideologies are reassuring, conforting, they put the mind at rest. For many people, the mere idea that this world is in fact crazy, meaningless and basically unpredictable, is unbearable. It's a monstruous, blasphemous and intolerable thought. So in their own special ways, ideologies fulfill the religious slot, the need to believe even insane theories, because believing them is relieving and makes more sense than embracing the maelstrom and complexity of the ordinary daily life.

    It's always less painful to believe in something.

    Libertarians aren't an exception to this rule. We have another proof of that here.
    The assumption that all authority is bad is a cornerstone of that particular religion/cult. The conspiracy theorists, et al, would have us believe this.

    It's not. Only some of it is bad.

    Like authority, governments are bad, good and all the shades in between.

    Inability to distinguish is an interesting trait.

    (I note your treatment of dogma is very, er, dogmatic.)

  4. #124
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    (I note your treatment of dogma is very, er, dogmatic.)
    Indeed!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #125
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I guess you advocate giving back the Louisiana Purchase since it wasn't exactly Constitutional for Thomas Jefferson to purchase it. I'm sure the French will love you for it.
    There is a big difference between "not explicitly permitted in the Constitution" and "explicitly forbidden in the Constitution."
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysterio View Post
    You do have a point about the 4th Amendment and the watering down of it by the war on drugs, not to mention the Patriot Act. The problem with this kind of paranoia about things like Obama’s “youth indoctrination camps” is that it muddies the waters around the stuff we should be more alarmed about.
    I don't care what the politics of these programs are (well, I guess I'd care if they were Communist or Klan-oriented or something, but not liberal or conservative). It's even the remotest possibility that public service could be made mandatory. That is outrageous.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    What's good with libertarians and extreme ideologies, is the fact that they are very predictable.

    Libertarians have a definition of EVIL that serves for every purposes, and it is "Government". If something is wrong within this world, it must be the government, and only the government.

    The Government I told you!

    It simplifies every tasks.

    They think that since their theory is flawless, near perfection, the world has to adapt to it. It's only one way. Nobody told them that being pragmatic requires that they should rather adapt their theories to the real world.

    Ideologies are like "ready-to-wear thoughts". They are seductive because they give a firm, simple answer to every questions. Thus, you don't need to think by yourself, and for yourself. We may call that intellectual laziness, but hey! Ideologies are reassuring, conforting, they put the mind at rest. For many people, the mere idea that this world is in fact crazy, meaningless and basically unpredictable, is unbearable. It's a monstruous, blasphemous and intolerable thought. So in their own special ways, ideologies fulfill the religious slot, the need to believe even insane theories, because believing them is relieving and makes more sense than embracing the maelstrom and complexity of the ordinary daily life.

    It's always less painful to believe in something.

    Libertarians aren't an exception to this rule. We have another proof of that here.

    Your understanding of libertarianism is severely lacking. You miss all of the nuance and the centuries of historical precedence involved.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #128
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    There is a big difference between "not explicitly permitted in the Constitution" and "explicitly forbidden in the Constitution."
    I know, I was just giving you crap.

    I can't imagine a Constitutional Republic would be that worse off by actually adhering to its Constitution.

    However, after George W. Bush used it for toilet paper for the last 8 years, the document has lost a little bit of its value. Those conservatives who turned a blind eye when he did so but now heatedly wish to adhere to it because Obama is president, have provided me endless hours of entertainment. The hypocrisy is bitter sweet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I know, I was just giving you crap.

    I can't imagine a Constitutional Republic would be that worse off by actually adhering to its Constitution.

    However, after George W. Bush used it for toilet paper for the last 8 years, the document has lost a little bit of its value. Those conservatives who turned a blind eye when he did so but now heatedly wish to adhere to it because Obama is president, have provided me endless hours of entertainment. The hypocrisy is bitter sweet.

    Liberals and conservatives follow the parts of the Constitution that they feel are worthwhile, and don't give two shits about the other parts. I think that the last 80 or so years of American history bear that out.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #130
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    What's good with libertarians and extreme ideologies, is the fact that they are very predictable.

    Libertarians have a definition of EVIL that serves for every purposes, and it is
    "Government". If something is wrong within this world, it must be the government, and only the government.

    The Government I told you!

    It simplifies every tasks.

    They think that since their theory is flawless, near perfection, the world has to adapt to it. It's only one way. Nobody told them that being pragmatic requires that they should rather adapt their theories to the real world.

    Ideologies are like "ready-to-wear thoughts". They are seductive because they give a firm, simple answer to every questions. Thus, you don't need to think by yourself, and for yourself. We may call that intellectual laziness, but hey! Ideologies are reassuring, conforting, they put the mind at rest. For many people, the mere idea that this world is in fact crazy, meaningless and basically unpredictable, is unbearable. It's a monstruous, blasphemous and intolerable thought. So in their own special ways, ideologies fulfill the religious slot, the need to believe even insane theories, because believing them is relieving and makes more sense than embracing the maelstrom and complexity of the ordinary daily life.

    It's always less painful to believe in something.

    Libertarians aren't an exception to this rule. We have another proof of that here.
    This might seem off topic, but i need to start with a more neutral and generally accepted truth:
    Why do people in Russia think capitalism sucks? Because it was poorly implemented (Yeltsin = crook), and thus if we were going to debate with Russians today over having a mixed economy vs a more libertarian economy, the avg russian is simply going to go by their own experiences with capitalism, which are obviously poor experiences.

    You, the European, are having similar problems. When Monetarist policies were implemented in europe, they didnt do well. When they were installed in the US, we did do well.

    I think there is an inherent cultural difference that simply makes cross comparison difficult (i think the 4 day work week people are probably the more likely group to be successful under a system with less incentives)

    This is at the root of the debate: we dont want to be like Europe, because we aren't Europe.

    In country after country, consensus social democratic politicians were replaced by those who would or themselves handed over power to manage the macroeconomy to central bankers whose views could be described as "monetarist"--not necessarily in the sense that they believed that chartist-like tracking of M1 was the answer, but in the sense that they believed that if the central bank focused on reducing inflation then the rest of the economy would take care of itself (see Friedman, 1968; Hall, 198?). And, indeed, the politicians and central bankers were assured by monetarist economists that a shift toward an anti-inflation policy would lead at the most to a few years of temporarily high unemployment. The monetarist belief was that business cycles are fluctuations around (not shortfalls below) a business cycle-free long run growth path. Fight inflation, the monetarists told the central bankers, and in a few years you will have the best of both worlds: low inflation and low unemployment. In the long run, Friedman (1968) assured everyone, the average rate of unemployment would be the "natural" rate of unemployment no matter what the rate of inflation was--so there was ultimately no cost to handing control of economic policy over to the inflation-fighters.

    As far as the United States is concerned, it appears that the monetarists told the truth: after a decade made more difficult by the destructive and growth-retarding structural fiscal deficits of the Reagan administration, the United States now has a low unemployment, a low inflation rate, and a high share of high-tech private investment in GDP.

    As far as Europe is concerned, it appears that the monetarists lied. Unemployment in Europe began to rise in the mid-1970s, and is now more than four times what it was at the start of that decade. There has been no sign of any "natural" rate toward which unemployment tends to return.

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