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  1. #31
    Senior Member Azseroffs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    This seems incredibly naive, and I don't believe a word of it. Pre-modern humans were often buried with their material possessions - again, it isn't capitalism that has somehow made or corrupted us into valuing material things. Wealth has always been generally attached to success in life - even when human society was pre-modern.

    Do you really think, for example, that a shiny red sports car parked glinting in the sun at the start of a long and twisty road will never *not* be sexy? I mean, I'm kidding around but I'm also serious about that. People haven't been manipulated into thinking that's sexy, it just *is* sexy.
    Material things don't have value in this type of economy. You may be right about some things being more appealing than others, but no one is going to be impressed if you have it. "Oh you have a sports car? That's cool, I think I'll order one tomorrow." At some point, people won't even care.

    Wealth has been cherished only because it is hard to obtain.

    You have to understand, It isn't an argument against capitalism. It's against monetary exchange, which includes all of human history.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Azseroffs's Avatar
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    It's a 90minute video, but it explains eeeevverything.

    The Zeitgeist Movement: Orientation Presentation
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  3. #33
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    OK, I have clicked the link to the vid and will try to give it a fair go later tonight.

    Material things don't have value in this type of economy. You may be right about some things being more appealing than others, but no one is going to be impressed if you have it. "Oh you have a sports car? That's cool, I think I'll order one tomorrow." At some point, people won't even care.
    Again, without having seen the video, my response to this might be do you think it's *possible* to ensure that human beings in this new society will not care about material things? The reason I'm arguing is because, to me, it's smacking of utopianism. Many people don't want sports cars because they *need* them, or because they're concerned with what others think of them, but just because they find them (the cars) very cool, and therefore worthy of owning.

    You could plunk me down in your new society, and I might not want to admit it out loud, but deep down I'll still believe that shiny red sports cars are awesome and definitely worth having! I might even be unhappy about not having one, or, not having the choice to earn one.

    Or will we all have shiny red sports cars in this new world?

    If so, sign me up.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Azseroffs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    Again, without having seen the video, my response to this might be do you think it's *possible* to ensure that human beings in this new society will not care about material things? The reason I'm arguing is because, to me, it's smacking of utopianism. Many people don't want sports cars because they *need* them, or because they're concerned with what others think of them, but just because they find them (the cars) very cool, and therefore worthy of owning.

    You could plunk me down in your new society, and I might not want to admit it out loud, but deep down I'll still believe that shiny red sports cars are awesome and definitely worth having! I might even be unhappy about not having one, or, not having the choice to earn one.

    Or will we all have shiny red sports cars in this new world?

    If so, sign me up.
    I see what you mean now. I don't believe it's possible to completely remove people's want for some material things. I was just trying to say that it won't be needlessly increased by advertisement or scarcity.

    The thing is, everyone could have a shiny red sports car if they wanted to, but when you don't need to work for something it loses its value. Anyone who has payed for diamonds when they could have bought glass should know what I'm talking about.

    If a man gave a woman a diamond ring that actually turned out to be glass she would be insulted. "Anyone could get a glass ring, I want a diamond ring." Sensually there isn't much difference between a diamond and glass duplicate, but since diamonds are rare and hard to get people want them more.

    It's basic economics. As supply goes up demand goes down. If supply is nearly infinite, demand would be nearly zero.

    The only things that would be considered valuable would be art or intelligence.

    The only reason why someone might want a shiny red car is because it has sentimental value. I believe that's the only reason why people would want any material thing. I think this is what you meant.
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  5. #35
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SforzaRS View Post
    It's basic economics. As supply goes up demand goes down. If supply is nearly infinite, demand would be nearly zero.
    This is not correct. Demand is affected by price, not supply. As supply increases, demand could also increase due to the price reduction.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #36
    Senior Member Azseroffs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is not correct. Demand is affected by price, not supply. As supply increases, demand could also increase due to the price reduction.
    Sorry, you're right
    But as a general statement, people want expensive things more than they want cheap things. I know there's an economic theory there somewhere.

    Anyone who would pick a luxury brand over something else is a clear example.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    They don't want them because they're more expensive. They want them because they are (usually) higher quality. The price reflects this.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #38
    Senior Member Azseroffs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    They don't want them because they're more expensive. They want them because they are (usually) higher quality. The price reflects this.
    Usually, yes, but not always. Often times the price difference is not proportional to quality difference. People like to buy "status" given by brand names. Products of advertisement.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SforzaRS View Post
    Usually, yes, but not always. Often times the price difference is not proportional to quality difference. People like to buy "status" given by brand names. Products of advertisement.
    That's true about brand names, but those brands got their reputation from a reason. And I don't see how your theoretical world could stop this from happening, unless all means of production were socialized (no individuals could create anything "trendy").
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #40
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    I suppose we have different working definitions of 'slavery' then - by your definition, if I'm reading you right, almost every living thing is a slave, in that yes, it is true we must work or die. We need to work to grow or buy or steal etc. the food we need, work to attract mates to reproduce with us, work to build/buy/maintain shelter.
    It's a bit more than that. The natural state of the economy is to prevent individuals from saving money in any way - zero economic profit. It must always be producing and a result of this is that the costs of living rise to meet income. You can only "save" to buy your "freedom" at the cost of someone else.

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