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  1. #21
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    It seems to me like this theory, if put into practice, might run up against a very thick brick wall known as 'human nature'.

    I.e. I agree with Lateralus.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

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  2. #22
    Senior Member MrRandom's Avatar
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    Yep, you can work for someone else, start your own business, or go live in a cabin in the woods. People do it every day. It's called choice.
    The thing is, very few of us would ever want to move to a cabin and hunt their own food. And starting your own business is not that simple either. For the most of us the only reasonable option is to work for others. If one option is way more reasonable than the rest, I'm not sure I'd call it a choice... (say hello to NF logic)

    To compare yourself to a slave is insulting to real slaves.
    Yes, but it was obviously a metaphora for not having a reasonable option other than working for others. I'm not actually handcuffed here. Anyway, maybe my choice of word was too exaggerated to carry my point well.

    It seems to me that you don't even understand what we mean by scarcity.
    I would have expected a short explanation from you to know if I understand it right or not. Anyway, you are right. I did my own research and it seems I understood the term scarcity as the word "scarce", but it's much more complex than that. Thank you for pointing that out.

  3. #23
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    Yes, but it was obviously a metaphora for not having a reasonable option other than working for others.
    Yeah but you do have other choices - you mentioned them above. Working for yourself, living self-sufficiently in the country. The fact that you don't want to do those things means you've *chosen* not to. You've chosen to work for someone else. It's not slavery. It's not even comparable to slavery (in that a)you've chosen it and b)you're compensated with wages).

    And for the record, I know tons of people who would looove to move into the countryside and do their own thing - some of them are even in the process of doing so. Same with working for yourself - I do, and it's much preferable to working for someone else, for me.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

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  4. #24
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    Yeah but you do have other choices - you mentioned them above.
    Choices don't make one free of slavery - death or work? How is it different that we have to work for food to live, or starve... or if we work for an "owner" who will feed us if we work, or kill us if not (or let us starve).

    The two, as far as that goes, are equivalent.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrRandom View Post
    Yes, but it was obviously a metaphora for not having a reasonable option other than working for others. I'm not actually handcuffed here. Anyway, maybe my choice of word was too exaggerated to carry my point well.
    I don't think your words were exaggerated exactly. I think the difficult part to accept is that we *are* slaves to nature. If we decide to do nothing, we starve. So we all have to do something. The problem is that if only a few people can do what needs to be done, then there is a pretty big incentive to organize into:

    1) Force (top are relatively rich and free, others are... not - slavery)
    2) Workshare (assigned work in fairness - communism)
    3) Incentive (assigned value to work - capitalism)

    Without being able to remove the fundamental problem - one that humans have no power over - somehow things need to be done.

    #1 actually works surprising well. That's because it treats humans like resources, allowing natural growth. The problem is that even in that system, you need an incentive beyond just force, otherwise creative aspects are missed. Historically you end up with a few different levels of power as a result... but the same pressures always come to bear - the bottom needs to have a chance at freedom, and the pyramid ends up collapsing the more you try to do that. That is, the more you improve everyone's life, the harder it becomes to manage.

    #2 works poorly. That's because it requires incentive or force, eventually, because of defectors. Tends to mirror either #1 or #3 eventually. However, it *does* work in small numbers, or where survival matters, or in temporary situations. It just doesn't scale up well.

    #3 works efficiently. That's because it aligns with incentives well. The problem is that it is... less organized. Or rather, because incentives tend to invite corruption and abuses. So you end up needing a large legal structure (whereas #1 needs just force, and #2 is more local)... then you need a lot of oversight. And even after that, you tend to need to have social concerns, otherwise it starts to head into #1 (ie: the people with money become part of the legal structure).

    [/rambling]

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Choices don't make one free of slavery - death or work? How is it different that we have to work for food to live, or starve... or if we work for an "owner" who will feed us if we work, or kill us if not (or let us starve).

    The two, as far as that goes, are equivalent.
    That's a philosophical argument that doesn't have much value, in my opinion, since we can't change the laws of physics (we all need to eat, sleep, etc).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #26
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    I don't believe that technology will save us from ourselves or whatever. superconductor trains might go nice and fast in a straight line, but come with quite a few major stumbling blocks.

    1. inertia. Europe has some high speed trains, but in at least gemany, the maximum speeds are limited by having to stop or slow down between other cities for whatever reason.

    2. inertia. Should there be an accident when approaching near supersonic speeds, ouch!

    3. water. do these guys realyl think we will have trains crossing the oceans?

  7. #27
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    That's a philosophical argument that doesn't have much value, in my opinion, since we can't change the laws of physics (we all need to eat, sleep, etc).
    We also have the option of changing how we play by the rules the universe sets out.

  8. #28
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    Choices don't make one free of slavery - death or work?
    I suppose we have different working definitions of 'slavery' then - by your definition, if I'm reading you right, almost every living thing is a slave, in that yes, it is true we must work or die. We need to work to grow or buy or steal etc. the food we need, work to attract mates to reproduce with us, work to build/buy/maintain shelter.

    My point was the types of work we do, are, in the west, a personal choice. Some may be more difficult than others, but perceived difficulty is going to be a personal call. The physical labour of a self-sustaining lifestyle will be preferable to physically easy but mentally hard office work for some, and not for others.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

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  9. #29
    Senior Member Azseroffs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    We'll never have a resource-based economy because human desire is limitless.
    It is easy to think so because of the way we behave in our society. I would re-word it as "human desire to be happy is limitless." Human desire for material things is not. It is finite but ever changing. Humans may have a desire for something material. In a resource based economy we wouldn't have as much desire for new things as much as we would for useful things. Our turnover rates of objects would drastically take a dive. The lack of advertisement and purposefully cheap easily broken material things would be major factors in this.

    Advertisement wouldn't exist in a resource based economy. Since there is no profit seeking, people wouldn't care about trying to sell things. All the sex appeal, glorification, etc of material things would be gone.

    Companies don't want you to have something that lasts forever. They make more profits when their merchandise breaks after the warranty and you come back to buy a new one. In a resource based economy, our material things would be built to last.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I've read a little on it. It sounds like Marxism version 8.3, to me. There have been lots of promises made in the past 100-150 years made by socialists, communists, etc. They've never come through.


    Yep, you can work for someone else, start your own business, or go live in a cabin in the woods. People do it every day. It's called choice. To compare yourself to a slave is insulting to real slaves.
    To me, it does sound like a split off of communism, but true communism cannot exist in a world of monetary needs. It is impossible to equally distribute benefits to all people when each person is not equal. There's no motivation for working harder or pursuing more difficult jobs. In a world without human labor, it doesn't make sense to distribute goods and services in any other way but equally.

    In a sense all people are slaves to themselves. Even business owners have to work for their customers. If we want to live at a high standard of living, we have no other choice.
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  10. #30
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    we have no other choice
    We never have - this isn't some circumstance that's only come about since capitalism. Everyone has always had to 'work' to survive, excepting a very, very privileged few (and even then, they had to work in their own ways).

    All the sex appeal, glorification, etc of material things would be gone.
    This seems incredibly naive, and I don't believe a word of it. Pre-modern humans were often buried with their material possessions - again, it isn't capitalism that has somehow made or corrupted us into valuing material things. Wealth has always been generally attached to success in life - even when human society was pre-modern.

    Do you really think, for example, that a shiny red sports car parked glinting in the sun at the start of a long and twisty road will never *not* be sexy? I mean, I'm kidding around but I'm also serious about that. People haven't been manipulated into thinking that's sexy, it just *is* sexy.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

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