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  1. #11
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrRandom View Post
    I believe it's inevitable. I think somewhere in the course of human history we stepped astray and developed a monetary system (okay, maybe it wasn't a mistake, because back then we didn't have the high technology). At least we should go forward and evolutionize the system now that we could.
    Money is just a medium of exchange, much more efficient than bartering. I don't know how you could possibly say we "stepped astray". Without money, economic productivity would be hindered and we would probably still be living like peasants.

    Money hasn't just benefited the rich, it has benefited everyone.

    Money = power over other people. With money you can hire other people to work for you (enslaving put into nice words).
    No, slavery means ownership. You can quit your job. And I'm sure you get more compensation than any slave.

    And that's the basis of our system. People having this power will not give it up (and that is the reason why money exists).
    Wrong, the system exists because it's the most efficient mode of exchange that we've come up with.

    Instead, they eat expensive gourmet food whilst poor people elsewhere are dying in hunger. How is that system worth saving? It's not. We can't even keep our own people alive! If we came to contact with intelligent alien races, I bet they'd laugh their asses (or whatever they had) off.
    I laughed when I read this. Your rant is completely irrational.

    We'll never have a resource-based economy because human desire is limitless.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #12
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Money hasn't just benefited the rich, it has benefited everyone.
    Exactly. Money isn't the issue. A resource based economy will exist until the moment scarcity is absent. An improving economy means that scarcity is decreasing (well... the production of scarce resources, anyway.)

    Money just helps with trade/allocation/production/etc.

    We'll never have a resource-based economy because human desire is limitless.
    And production is limited.

    There is a theoretical point where production is infinite, or close to it - when we upload our minds into virtual environments that are self-sustaining, or some such. That's way out of scope for what is being talked about though.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrRandom View Post
    I believe it's inevitable. I think somewhere in the course of human history we stepped astray and developed a monetary system (okay, maybe it wasn't a mistake, because back then we didn't have the high technology). At least we should go forward and evolutionize the system now that we could.

    Money = power over other people. With money you can hire other people to work for you (enslaving put into nice words). And that's the basis of our system. People having this power will not give it up (and that is the reason why money exists). Instead, they eat expensive gourmet food whilst poor people elsewhere are dying in hunger. How is that system worth saving? It's not. We can't even keep our own people alive! If we came to contact with intelligent alien races, I bet they'd laugh their asses (or whatever they had) off.
    This is... interesting. How would you propose we handle the distribution of our resources without a yardstick to guage what a person can afford? Do you feel that everyone should be treated equally with no regard to their contributions to society? If the guy pumping gas is doing as well as my doctor, I don't feel that's an equitable treatment.

    People dying of hunger in places of the world are not an issue of money. Money isn't a thing. It's symbolic of resources that exist anyway - but far more liquid so we don't have to barter and physically ship things around. The real issue of hunger is their society not being developed or stable enough to manage their own population. Go take a look at the "Mother Africa is Crying" thread for some debate about that.

  4. #14
    Senior Member MrRandom's Avatar
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    Money is just a medium of exchange, much more efficient than bartering.
    Yes, but have you even familiarized yourself with the Venus Project prior to critiquing me? It's not any of their goals to change our monetary system into bartering. That would be evolution backwards.

    You can quit your job.
    Excuse me? I can? Then please explain how on earth will I get any money? Yes, by taking another job. Status quo. Without winning in a lottery or inheriting money I will have to have a job. You called my "rant" irrational, but I dare say the same about your suggestion to simply quit my job. It doesn't work like that. How I wish it did.

    I laughed when I read this. Your rant is completely irrational.
    Exactly. Money isn't the issue. A resource based economy will exist until the moment scarcity is absent.
    Yes. My food example was exactly about scarcity. I think you are missing the point:
    Uneven distribution = scarcity somewhere & abundance elsewhere.
    As we already have abundance in many places, we could distribute evenly and thus eliminate scarcity if we wanted. It's already possible. Money is a central reason why we are not doing so. People with money are not going to give it up.

    Oh fellow NFs, please come save me...

  5. #15
    Senior Member scattershot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    If the guy pumping gas is doing as well as my doctor, I don't feel that's an equitable treatment.
    Exactly. Money also serves as an incentive, not just a means of controlling people.

    Without money, why would anyone invest the time and effort to become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or any other specialized profession? You might have a few people doing it because that's what they love, but I doubt that would be enough to support society. I sure as hell wouldn't have gone to college if I could have earned the same wage pumping gas.
    "I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence." Frederick Douglass

  6. #16
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scattershot View Post
    Without money, why would anyone invest the time and effort to become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or any other specialized profession? You might have a few people doing it because that's what they love, but I doubt that would be enough to support society.
    We SJs make a good portion out of the general public.

    Now, let's think about a common family. Do we need money inside a family? Did your mother ever charge you for meals and household services? Did you pay rent to your father, or did you have to rent movies from your brother's movie collection?

    If we can live perfectly fine without money inside the family, why couldn't we live without money all together?
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  7. #17
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    If we can live perfectly fine without money inside the family, why couldn't we live without money all together?
    Cooperation breaks down the more people are involved; no close bonds; threat of being kicked out into a hostile world; the people involved are kids; they do not exchange labor. A few others, but that's more or less it.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Cooperation breaks down the more people are involved; no close bonds; threat of being kicked out into a hostile world; the people involved are kids; they do not exchange labor. A few others, but that's more or less it.
    Makes sense.

    Why couldn't we all just pretend that belong to one and the same huge galactic family?
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  9. #19
    Senior Member scattershot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    We SJs make a good portion out of the general public.
    Hey, if you SJs are willing to go through all the schooling and training necessary to support society without getting any additional benefit, then we'd be fine. I'm not sure the rest of us lazy asses would be as motivated without money. And wouldn't the SJs eventually get frustrated if they were busting their asses all day just to subsidize the rest of us?
    "I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence." Frederick Douglass

  10. #20
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrRandom View Post
    Yes, but have you even familiarized yourself with the Venus Project prior to critiquing me? It's not any of their goals to change our monetary system into bartering. That would be evolution backwards.
    I've read a little on it. It sounds like Marxism version 8.3, to me. There have been lots of promises made in the past 100-150 years made by socialists, communists, etc. They've never come through.

    Excuse me? I can? Then please explain how on earth will I get any money? Yes, by taking another job. Status quo. Without winning in a lottery or inheriting money I will have to have a job. You called my "rant" irrational, but I dare say the same about your suggestion to simply quit my job. It doesn't work like that. How I wish it did.
    Yep, you can work for someone else, start your own business, or go live in a cabin in the woods. People do it every day. It's called choice. To compare yourself to a slave is insulting to real slaves.

    Yes. My food example was exactly about scarcity. I think you are missing the point:
    Uneven distribution = scarcity somewhere & abundance elsewhere.
    As we already have abundance in many places, we could distribute evenly and thus eliminate scarcity if we wanted. It's already possible. Money is a central reason why we are not doing so. People with money are not going to give it up.
    This is incorrect. Eliminating abundance would not eliminate scarcity. It seems to me that you don't even understand what we mean by scarcity.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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