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  1. #71
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Private organization as in "mercinary" aid Q.
    Indulge me - give an example of what you mean by mercenary aid. Which groups?


    When in reality you are satisfying midlife crisis and are absalutely no help to them by you're still here taking intro-es posts out of context.

    You assume midlife crisis, so it must be true, and I'm taking intro-es post out of context?

    Btw, seriously, it's like reading a fun house mirror. I really want to respond to you, but, you have to MAKE SENSE. Read that above statement.........can you seriously follow it??? Like, seriously???


    Indiana Jones was lookin for a 1000 year old watch or something. Whats he got to do with providing aid to individuals beside himself?
    Oh, you're talking about irrelevant off-topic connections, like Indiana Jones. How can I relate it to you: Oh, I know, he had a midlife crisis- now I'm sure you'll understand.

  2. #72
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Indulge me - give an example of what you mean by mercenary aid. Which groups?

    Groups that no longer exist thanks to the un. The media will also assure that you never hear about their history again. However, PBS of all places brought private mostly american mercanary organizations to my attention 10 years ago. What they did was systematically assasinate ruthless gangs gathered in small numbers at say when they were left to guard a bridge.



    You assume midlife crisis, so it must be true, and I'm taking intro-es post out of context?

    Btw, seriously, it's like reading a fun house mirror. I really want to respond to you, but, you have to MAKE SENSE. Read that above statement.........can you seriously follow it??? Like, seriously???

    Yes, as much as you can't follow the reasoning of keeping the whole context there without deleting parts to manipulate it in your own head. Since your folks didn't give you a filter doesn't mean mine didn't give me a filter. Instead your folks waited for you to go to college so college could perhaps give you a false sense of security that your experiance there gave you a devine filter.


    Oh, you're talking about irrelevant off-topic connections, like Indiana Jones. How can I relate it to you: Oh, I know, he had a midlife crisis- now I'm sure you'll understand.
    You can't relate to me but your cause most certainly can. Or i wouln't be reading. You are ESTJ. You've gained insite from those who you deem as worthy because of their title-(professor). I gain insight from those who i deem as worthy because of their unbias observation through protecting those who you deem worthy.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  3. #73
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Since powerful "governments" or rather gangs or cartels have all the guns, the popular consensus can't evolve and has to succumb to the status quo. What i'm "arguing" is that those cartels hamper efforts to distribute ... say ... conraceptives. The un and media legitamize those gangs if by only refering to their leaders as "president".
    So....what else can the UN do? The other option from your statements would be if the UN called them dirty, nasty scoundrels, then, somehow, the efforts to distribute aid wouldn't be hindered? Wow....um.... interesting theory. Please expound further how exactly the nitti-grittiness of this would work.

    So what Qs conscience doesn't understand is that while satisfying guilt by posting this in a very articulate way the inevitable cute thinking bs theorys pop out.
    And, like I keep justifying WHY your theory is bullshit....give me the same treatment. Connect A to B and walk me through WHY/which parts of my statements compound to: theory is bullshit. Much appreciated. (and waiting with eager anticipation)

    And givin Qs type, he she or it will automatically knee jerk about certain truths of the forest.
    You know me better than I know myself. How have I gone through life without such a stain on my being, I can never know. If it is not too much to ask, can I bother you to reveal your meaning behind such general statements that does nothing to discuss the issues at hand, but, just mud-slings at one poster or the next....can I, dare I hope, ask for an actual discourse of the issues. Like give examples of why certain of my 'truths' are not so....you know....FLESH out your arguments. Rather than attacking a character. Good debates practice the former, bullshitters practice the latter.


    While all these posts were writen potentially 10,000 more friends died in Africa. Did you hear about it in the media? No.
    I'll be sure to tell New York Times that they forgot to report on the story of 10000 African people dying while people posted on the MBTI forums discussing Africa.


    So Qs post brought about an awareness and we so excellerated it. In "cute thinking" theory and opinion.
    I didn't know that awareness of issues had set guidelines on WHAT issues could be spoken of (or not) on this forum. If so, please point me to those rules.

    If Q thinks i'm gonna cease and assist by detatching in what he she or it figures as clever articulate rebuttles to my posts, Q will become aware that that is now impossible because the "theory" of mbti made me "aware" of detachment.
    ??????????? All kinds of confusion. I follow not. Please...someone, anyone, help me understand prof. stain. Cuz you know how much I revere the words of a 'professor'....

  4. #74
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    I gain insight from those who i deem as worthy because of their unbias observation through protecting those who you deem worthy.
    Oh! OH! I want names. Please. Who are these purely objective creatures, with their unbias observations? I even asked for names before (again, you didn't answer or give names of even ONE mercenary org that UN has stopped)....please, end my suspense. Give me a grain.

    My ESTJ heart bleeds for it.

    Asking for the second time, I'm really curious as to your justification of this:
    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Since powerful "governments" or rather gangs or cartels have all the guns, the popular consensus can't evolve and has to succumb to the status quo. What i'm "arguing" is that those cartels hamper efforts to distribute ... say ... conraceptives. The un and media legitamize those gangs if by only refering to their leaders as "president".
    So....what else can the UN do? The other option from your statements would be if the UN called them dirty, nasty scoundrels, then, somehow, the efforts to distribute aid wouldn't be hindered? Wow....um.... interesting theory. Please expound further how exactly the nitti-grittiness of this would work.


    Please answer this. Thanks.

  5. #75
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    So....what else can the UN do? The other option from your statements would be if the UN called them dirty, nasty scoundrels, then, somehow, the efforts to distribute aid wouldn't be hindered? Wow....um.... interesting theory. Please expound further how exactly the nitti-grittiness of this would work.

    It would have worked a while back. Knowing that the un should have been abolished a while back. How does that help the present you ask? It doesn't. But if the un had their public donations via my money transferred to private organizations (as a whole) Africa would be far better off. Not to mention 70% more rich.

    And, like I keep justifying WHY your theory is bullshit....give me the same treatment. Connect A to B and walk me through WHY/which parts of my statements compound to: theory is bullshit. Much appreciated. (and waiting with eager anticipation)

    You said your theory was bull shit. I'm only sayin college professors are full of shit.

    You know me better than I know myself. How have I gone through life without such a stain on my being, I can never know. If it is not too much to ask, can I bother you to reveal your meaning behind such general statements that does nothing to discuss the issues at hand, but, just mud-slings at one poster or the next....can I, dare I hope, ask for an actual discourse of the issues. Like give examples of why certain of my 'truths' are not so....you know....FLESH out your arguments. Rather than attacking a character. Good debates practice the former, bullshitters practice the latter.


    Good theory, or rather philosophy-the former the latter. Discourse or blind discourse? Discourse is pondering all points of view. Or are only socialist ones acceptable?

    I'll be sure to tell New York Times that they forgot to report on the story of 10000 African people dying while people posted on the MBTI forums discussing Africa.


    They won't do anything about it but they will print some complacent crap about yet another local (in amirica local) unoccurance about why we should mate with monkeys in order to find harmony with stem cell research.

    I didn't know that awareness of issues had set guidelines on WHAT issues could be spoken of (or not) on this forum. If so, please point me to those rules.

    No rules. All in your head. Potential rules concerning this post were blown to bits when the rule makers got the feeling they were persecuted after they started persecuting. We have since uncovered that both christians and contraceptives are both effective in the effort to aid Africa.

    ??????????? All kinds of confusion. I follow not. Please...someone, anyone, help me understand prof. stain.
    Don't try to understand stain but help in the awareness of the reality of Africa by observing pseudo persecution and then response at the very least.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  6. #76
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Don't try to understand stain but help in the awareness of the reality of Africa by observing pseudo persecution and then response at the very least.
    And...that was all he (could) say. Do you practice nonsense for a living?

    Thanks for such a stimulating discourse, compounding to NOTHING.

    Do you ever back your shit up? You've heard the saying, opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one. JUSTIFY IT and then opinions enter the realm of critical thought and discourse. Otherwise, all you're doing is talking without thought. Might I suggest you can do the same with much more ease while talking to your fun-house mirror.

    Prof. STAIN: #1 It would have worked a while back. Knowing that the un should have been abolished a while back. How does that help the present you ask? It doesn't. But if the un had their public donations via my money transferred to private organizations (as a whole) Africa would be far better off. Not to mention 70% more rich.

    Name the organizations and why they are better choices. We're trying to give options of the best help we can give to those in need. Please, I keep asking....give TANGIBLE thoughts. Speak to an example. I have no idea how to follow that thought.

    Giving money to UN who should transfer it to private organizations would help Africa...am I understanding you right? Tell me how this would work and WHY.

    Prof. STAIN: #2 Good theory, or rather philosophy-the former the latter. Discourse or blind discourse? Discourse is pondering all points of view. Or are only socialist ones acceptable?

    Marx even had the good sense to explain the WHYs of his theory.....(not that I even get the connection to socialism that you brought in). So, please give the WHY of your side.

    Prof. STAIN: #3 We have since uncovered that both christians and contraceptives are both effective in the effort to aid Africa.

    LOL. Christians and contraceptives are both effective in the effort to aid Africa. hahaha. Why again are Christians effective? I mean, you can have non-christians support abstinence (or did you miss the part in my long post where I said they ALL have to work together, including promoting abstinence & 1 partner?). One doesn't have to be Christian to support this stand. I don't understand your logic.

    TRY AGAIN.

  7. #77
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    And...that was all he (could) say. Thanks for such a stimulating discourse, compounding to NOTHING.

    Do you ever back your shit up? You've heard the saying, opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one. JUSTIFY IT and then opinions enter the realm of critical thought and discourse. Otherwise, all you're doing is talking without thought. Might I suggest you can do the same with much more ease while talking to your fun-house mirror.
    You could ask all the others including yourself to justify it. Sorry not writing a book doesn't satisfy you. But thats what professors expect. A book. You still haven't "justified" the possatives of the un. Your outstanding thread on Africa aside, you were blind to those posts that persecuted without justifications. Sometimes the shear reality of the plight of Africa just doesn't surface stimulating discourse. But if you look at each post it will present to you a few individuals who give half a shit. Each one on your thread, not any that your mind may tell you i've hand picked. Each one. Pseudo persecution aside, i have a great admiration for each individual who posted. Do you? Tell me there wasn't critical thought or discourse. Or did professors wire you to think opinions besides their own are subject to persecution? The creation of a fun house mirror in your head came from an obvious real fun house mirror existing from your own pseudo persecution of yourself for not thinking that it is possible that someone out there might have an experential understanding of the situation that doesn't corresponde with the title of professor. Believable no. Possible ya.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  8. #78
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Your example is of a writer. That's a far cry from a business owner reducing production (and laying off workers) to achieve the same goals, and that's what this is about. A writer "going Galt" has virtually no effect on the economy. There are protesters for every issue.
    It shouldn't matter what the person does - they all contribute "wealth".

    It's better put that what a writer produces is less valued than the services the government would support. There is always some deadweight loss to taxation, but in cases where market inefficiencies reign, it can be economically positive.

    That, and the whole Galt thing is rhetoric. It needs to be put in perspective. The marginal loss from what is being talked about is positive for 90% of the people. Even if the balance was overall negative, due to the wealth of the top 10%, supporting the bottom 90% is like greasing the wheels of the grinding economy.

    It's relevant to the OP too. The problem for Africa is that people want an industrial/capitalist society, so they end up sending money to the "effects" of having such a society. Instead, we need to focus on what produces the outcomes you want. Even if it was less economically efficient, there are tons of situations in which "poorer" situations are fairer. Global warming/climate change can be seen like "Rationing food on a boat lost at sea". Sure, everyone may be "poorer" because they can't eat as much as they should. And of course, in many cases it isn't the individuals that will bear the cost, but their children.

    Just like in Africa - why help people that aren't close by? Because every person contributes to humanity in the long run. And if we can drag the billions of people up, those billions of people will be producing more and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    And, like I keep justifying WHY your theory is bullshit....give me the same treatment. Connect A to B and walk me through WHY/which parts of my statements compound to: theory is bullshit.
    Ideology, defended by circular reasoning.

    Anyway, my thoughts:

    The bottom line of this is that to bootstrap Africa - or any nation - forward, you need to create the economic conditions to do so. No amount of food, medicine (including contraceptives) or technology will do this. Education can, but that's dependent on if it involves marginal improvements to human capital, rather than just targeting niche goals.

    So, for instance, more good has come out of microloans than everything else that I have seen done. It allows capital improvements, which forces others to compete with them, which causes increased production. This increased production is wealth, pure and simple. To trace the entire thing is impossible, but I remember a story about a "baker" who got the micro loan. It started as a woman in a hut, and turned into 3-4 women in a hut with machines, transporting their goods - along with others - to the market. That's the start of industrialization, and that's what they need more than anything else. Their demand increases the need for more grain, and more grain means more capital improvements for agriculture, which releases more people into the workforce, etc.

    These forces will begin to act on contraceptives, etc. You cannot simply hand them out - people must want to buy them, that is, value them. I do not believe the market is efficient, to be clear. I strong support subsidizing and creating the foundation for medicine and contraceptives, so that it becomes a stable and cheaply available system. Their economy will be able to pay only cents for the contraceptives, and so it must be subsidized in order to bootstrap. The same goes for a few other things. But creating a subsidized market is different than giving them away. You have price controls in this market - can raise or lower prices in order to target a certain *class* of people. And it engineers demand. People who can afford it are "special", and differentiate themselves. It's silly to think of contraceptives like LV purses, but it's surprisingly similar.

    Handing out contraceptives to the poor doesn't work. They need their children to support them. They need them to overcome the medical issues. And no one can create everything they need for that kind of society. They must grow into it... building the tools to build the tools to build their wealth.

  9. #79
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    I don't agree with Q's take on this issue, generally, but s/he is certainly making a lot more sense than you, Profgoodstain. You aren't backing up anything you're saying and, yes, backing stuff up does help if one wants to be taken seriously.

    Also, what is "mercenary aid"? Who would pay these mercenaries? Recently, Mia Farrow (I think - it was some bleeding heart celeb) called for mercenary intervention in Africa.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  10. #80
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Just like in Africa - why help people that aren't close by? Because every person contributes to humanity in the long run. And if we can drag the billions of people up, those billions of people will be producing more and more.
    I like this line of thought.


    Anyway, my thoughts:

    The bottom line of this is that to bootstrap Africa - or any nation - forward, you need to create the economic conditions to do so. No amount of food, medicine (including contraceptives) or technology will do this. Education can, but that's dependent on if it involves marginal improvements to human capital, rather than just targeting niche goals.
    Health research at the policy level is beyond the realm of tackle (in a direct sense) by most of us (certainly most of us on this forum, unless we got some ambassadors hiding within us). My aim with this thread wasn't to see, in a theoretical sense, what can be done for those in peril...but, what can we, you, me, within our realistic means, do.

    Thus, talking about tackling economic conditions, as valid as it may to the situation at large in Africa, I cannot understand how we can directly affect the change needed in this sphere.

    As well, I don't understand this either/or mentality. That is assumed within my post, even though I keep reiterating that there are inherent barriers at a much deeper level. You are talking of preventative measures, I am speaking of symtomatic measures. They can go hand in hand (and should, I believe).

    Why an either/or?

    I ask again, why are we so quick to look at ONLY the macroscopic level of this issue? Why not at the individual level and ask what we can do to help? Why must help/aid in terms of giving food, medicine, etc, 'band-aid' solutions, if you will, still be not relevant if it can relieve the burden, even of an individual, for x amount of time? Why is this still not relevant?

    So, for instance, more good has come out of microloans than everything else that I have seen done. It allows capital improvements, which forces others to compete with them, which causes increased production. This increased production is wealth, pure and simple. To trace the entire thing is impossible, but I remember a story about a "baker" who got the micro loan. It started as a woman in a hut, and turned into 3-4 women in a hut with machines, transporting their goods - along with others - to the market. That's the start of industrialization, and that's what they need more than anything else. Their demand increases the need for more grain, and more grain means more capital improvements for agriculture, which releases more people into the workforce, etc.
    Microloans is an excellent idea, and one that has been implemented with great success in China, in particular to the rural agricultural population of China.
    China's rural micro credit program wins int'l recognition(02/27/08)

    Only issue is that there has to be generated interest at the governmental level. And, if the govt itself is corrupt/in turmoil, then the only other option is foreign initiative.

    These forces will begin to act on contraceptives, etc. You cannot simply hand them out - people must want to buy them, that is, value them.
    Value them in comparison to what? How do we realisitically give condoms enough 'value', say, over, using very very limited monetary funds on food or medicine for one's family. How do we place value on such things to a population where even basic human day-to-day survival needs are a luxury to be attained (so forget giving them lessons on the indirect merits of condoms to long-term survival)?


    Handing out contraceptives to the poor doesn't work. They need their children to support them. They need them to overcome the medical issues. And no one can create everything they need for that kind of society. They must grow into it... building the tools to build the tools to build their wealth.
    Giving aid at the symptomatic level isn't truly like titling at the windmills. Futile as it may be for long-term sustainability, I still don't understand the reasoning of why these solutions are invalid at an immediate, case to case level?

    We can and should do both as a global community. Unfortunately, with my background and expertise, I can only really target the symtomatic issues, I don't have the power to practically help at the policy level. I can theorize about it, all day and night on a forum...but, I don't know how to give a direct cause-effect action towards this cause. Do you?

    Although, there are many organizations I can support as well, that, aims towards building communities as a whole, for those interested (again, it's not either/or, do whichever resonates the most with the reader):

    FARM Friends | FARM FRIENDS - Charity Gifts for FARM-Africa (buy a farm animal for a rural village to increase their agricultural productivity)

    Floating Gardens is another good initiative that worked in Bangladesh:
    Floating Gardens in Bangladesh - Agriculture - Cultivation - Practical Answers

    And, as you pointed out the one about microloans:
    Kiva - Loans that change lives

    And, I would love if others can offer practical solutions that they've come across on how we can help. My options are not the *only* options (never said they were). Please, like pgatsby, provide such information if anyone has. And links to how we can get involved in such initiatives.

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