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  1. #51
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I think this theory is about as valid as Rand's Galt theory people have been talking about lately. They're both nothing more than hypothetical bullshit, the result of people trying to be too cute with their thinking. Neither theory can be proved or disproved, so their champions will never be silenced.
    Didn't che try to silence champions of theory? Cute thinking lat.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  2. #52
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I think this theory is about as valid as Rand's Galt theory people have been talking about lately. They're both nothing more than hypothetical bullshit, the result of people trying to be too cute with their thinking. Neither theory can be proved or disproved, so their champions will never be silenced.
    You need to define "valid" and "hypothetical bullshit"
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  3. #53
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I think this theory is about as valid as Rand's Galt theory people have been talking about lately. They're both nothing more than hypothetical bullshit, the result of people trying to be too cute with their thinking. Neither theory can be proved or disproved, so their champions will never be silenced.
    You think it's an unproveable theory that some folks are throttling down on their productivity to reduce their tax exposure?

  4. #54
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    You think it's an unproveable theory that some folks are throttling down on their productivity to reduce their tax exposure?
    You noticed that? Just as soon as a buisness gets close to 250,000$, or whatever it is now, they'll stop employing more workers and stagnate their productivity.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  5. #55
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Thing is, the only reason this all got started was someone elses theory that faith based charity (forces) Africans to conduct their lives according to christianity. That's a bunch of bs within itself. But the media presentation fuels this phenomenon to protect the un because of the medias "theory" that socialism really works. The christians on the ground understand that education of STD's corresponding with abstainance is clearly important.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  6. #56
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Introverted-esfp View Post


    That is highly debateble. While the greeks did have some limited contact with egyptians pre b.c 2000 it is unclear if that was a determining factor in greek civilization, people are still speculating about the factors that started the cultural revolution which spawned the classical age in greece, alot of it is too shrouded in the mist and too obscure to be able to make a valid conclusion.
    Doubt it has relevance but the ancient language of Nafarro (euskara) was likely used to build the pyramids. Euskara is from europe. wierd.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  7. #57
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    You think it's an unproveable theory that some folks are throttling down on their productivity to reduce their tax exposure?
    Yep.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #58
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Yep.
    Well, it has happened historically. Consider this paragraph from the Wikipedia entry for Rose Wilder Lane:

    Around 1940, despite continuing requests from editors for both fiction and non-fiction material, Lane turned away from commercial writing and became known as one of the more influential American libertarians of the middle 20th century. She vehemently opposed the New Deal, creeping socialism, Social Security, wartime rationing and all forms of taxation, claiming she ceased writing highly paid commercial fiction in order to protest paying income taxes. She cut her income and expenses to the bare minimum, and lived a modern-day version of her ancestors' pioneer life on her rural land near Danbury, Connecticut.

    Given that at least one case of "going Galt" has been documented, it is by no means unreasonable to believe that another such case exists today, or likely several.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    On the point of contraceptives, I'm not sure how they could be bad at this stage of the game.
    They aren't. They have been introduced, and more to the point, trying to be introduced with great fervor. Success of their implementation remains fraught with many socio/cultural/economic and political hurdles, just like much of the seeds (the core) of the health issues affecting such places, like Sub-Saharan Africa.

    Researchers keep trying to think of many ways (not just contraceptives) that could work at a conceptual level, using mass data accrued to get a more macroscopic, epidemic and/or endemic level. As well as, at the microscopic, individual level. And, think, think of ways. Think. Implement. Does it take? Doesn't it? Evaluate, evaluate.

    And through all this, the medium through which it is carried out is by health care workers, teachers at the schools, local midwives, local doctors, foreign doctors, nurses, and even, local community health workers*. And I'm missing maybe a few more areas of expertise that merge to tackle problems at the level of international health.

    * community health workers is another great novel idea that has been embraced by local community members and one that has done much good:
    Community Health Workers


    I'd be more concerned about STDs and how to minimize their impact.
    And all the above people have acted on such concerns. Or tried to, to the best of their efforts.

    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    You are correct. But in Africa sometimes there is a shortage but the status quo remains the same. Where christians teach (not enforce) abstainance is where a bit of awareness or "education" takes place.
    Right! Because 'teaching' (not enforcing) is so harmless. Another word rhymes with teaching, preaching. And, you know, those people there need more of our preaching and patronizing that gives such advice as 'stop having sex please, it can give you bad things like HIV/AIDS that lead to death or too many mouths to feed'.

    Yeah, I'm sure the please makes a difference to resisting such basic species-level instinct as sex.

    Have you heard of: hope for the best but prepare for the worst? [anticipate all, or as many as possible, circumstances, and prepare accordingly]...saying, 'just stop cuz......' isn't enough. Give resources beyond. Tools.


    Why not 'preach' something that is not 'all talk'. All talk only has merit if it can be justified in its implementation in action. Back up the words - does it actually work? Don't waste time blowing hot air.

    OR...there is the other side and their proposition -

    At its simplest format of equation:
    Contraceptives + effective education about contraceptives + promotion of abstinence & single partner + cultural acceptance = success. All need to go hand in hand. And, that's what the education I was talking in my OP.

    [oh, and apply the variable of TIME to the above equation]

    Time is a constant with either of the two sides of options:
    1) Time is hindered by preaching to STOP having sex cuz it can do bad things/add more burden (it's impractical and illogical at a human instinct level, at our most basest level) as the only true solution.

    2) Time is hindered by 'preaching' about learning how to have some decision/free will with one's own sexual atonomy, which may very well include choosing NOT to engage in sex. AND.... use of contraceptives, education about safe sex, etc.

    Only the effect of what happens with each of these two options will predict if time is hindered positively or negatively. Does it make a difference for the better, worse, or no effect at all?

    #2 has progress to its name. #1 fails! Massively! [well, this side doesn't really self evaluate themselves to see if what they're doing is actually working (or not)]

    And, you can't argue that they are working on different contexts, either.
    One analogy could be viewing it as a naturalistic randomized control trial.

    Both 'intervention'/education on the same profile of population (generally), but, two groups, given 2 different 'interventions'.
    And, we see the effects on each group/area.

    And, it's easy enough to see by the results which of the two options works. It has been shown time and time again. #2 'wins'.

    Although, the 'winning' isn't always quite effective because of inherent socio-political, economic and cultural barriers. It still produces some results. And, #2 critiques its own self. And goes on to research the barriers to its hypothized success and lack of (which #1 never thinks it's logical to do - research its own proposition and its effect).

    End point:

    It's called research.

    And, no, it's not the media that I rely on. And, no, it's not due to some kinky tendency for ass-kissing of international organizations.

    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Thing is, the only reason this all got started was someone elses theory that faith based charity (forces) Africans to conduct their lives according to christianity. That's a bunch of bs within itself. But the media presentation fuels this phenomenon to protect the un because of the medias "theory" that socialism really works. The christians on the ground understand that education of STD's corresponding with abstainance is clearly important.

    That is not even the real issue. Are you that short-sighted to completely miss the urgency of my OP and the state of being of these people? It's not the political leaders, the rebel leaders, that are being affected, it's the poorest of the poor! If living according to christianity helped their problems, I'd be the first to say, Hallelujah!

    But....

    It hasn't helped to the level that education about safe sex, abstinence, along with , tools that help when people slip on the education, has helped. And, it's short-sighted to think that human nature doesn't account for slips, you know, mistakes, like loss of momentary 'control'.

    Safe sex, in case you didn't know, can be summed up quick and easy as ABC: abstinence, being faithful (i.e., positive reasoning to practicing one partner with regards to STDs), condom use (and other contraceptives].

    So, please enlighten me to the great strides such religious advocacy of abstinence only because otherwise you can get STDs and way more kids than you know what to do with, so, seriously stop doing the nasty has made. I'm more than open to see some critically reviewed research on the matter. :rolleyes2:

    Here I'll even support my side (fair's fair, rite?)...

    And, I'll even do one better and give one on the use of media as a vehicle to promote contraceptive use, since you love media so much

    Title: The impact of multimedia family planning promotion on the contraceptive behavior of women in Tanzania.Author: Jato MN; Simbakalia C; Tarasevich JM; Awasum DN; Kihinga CN; Ngirwamungu E
    Source: International Family Planning Perspectives. 1999 Jun;25(2):60-7.
    Abstract: This study examined effects of mass media campaigns promoting family planning (FP) on contraceptive use in Tanzania. Nationally representative data were obtained from a 1994 KAP Survey and a 1991-92 Demographic and Health Survey. Tanzania integrated FP into maternal and child health services in 1988. It adopted 1992 IEC policy, a national communication program, and social marketing of condoms in 1992. The FP Communication Project operated during 1991-94 and educated men and women about the health benefits of modern contraception. The multimedia campaign relied on radio spots in 1993 and 1994, a radio serial drama during 1993-94, a Green Star logo, posters, leaflets, newspapers, and audiocassettes. Other campaigns by five other organizations or programs were complementary. Analysis reveals that women's exposure to mass media sources of FP messages was associated with increased contraceptive use, especially modern methods. Women exposed to FP messages were more likely than other women to discuss FP with their spouses and to visit health facilities. These effects remained after controls for residence, education, age, marital status, parity, approval of FP, partners' views on FP, and radio ownership. Most women who recalled mass media messages were not already using or had not ever used contraceptives. The impact was greater when women were exposed to multiple sources. Messages reached about 55% of reproductive-age women.


    Inmagic CS/WebPublisher PRO found 1 records

    Source citation:
    International Family Planning Perspectives, 1999 Jun;25(2):60-7.

    *****

    And, contraceptive health research is realisitic enough to critique itself. And, the challenges it is working with(in).

    It's mind-boggling actually the barriers there are:
    1) CJO - Abstract - EFFECTS OF COUPLES' CHARACTERISTICS ON CONTRACEPTIVE USE IN SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA: THE GHANAIAN EXAMPLE

    2) Population policies for Sub-Saharan Africa

    3) Contextual Influences on Modern Contraceptive Use in Sub-Saharan Africa -- Stephenson et al. 97 (7): 1233 -- American Journal of Public Health

    4) https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/974

    So, unfortunately, it's not as easy as saying 'yes! we're gonna promote contraceptive use to these people'. I recognize that.......
    ...... Because we can be dangling the carrot without any real promise of delivering said carrot to these populations, as you posit:

    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Condoms and birth control don't lead to more children. But when someone is used to that much sex imagine if they are not there all the time. Africa isn't America or Russia. But we are well on our way to having absorbenant amounts of sex. And when we do, imagine if conraceptives and birth control aren't available all the time. Would you agree that in areas with a high rate of fatherless children there are children present? And didn't they use birth control? Or did they miss a day or 2 of it because they spent their money on other things or had no money to buy it or just didn't buy it at all. Right. They had sex anyway because of bordom, fun, drinking, whatever.

    We in the developed country are privy to many things that afford us the luxury to invest in many aspects of a quality of life, such as long-term education, career/work/sustainability. And, it has been proven ad nauseum, the connection of high SES, economic/political stablility (key word there), environmental/home stability significantly correlating with greater choice/control of sexual practices which drastically lowers complications with STDs and unplanned pregnancy.

    It is not as simple as saying 'don't give them such resources in the first place because we can't promise to let them have the tangible resources forever and as such, they're then left without a life-jacket' (ahem, pun intended).

    I highly doubt people have MORE sex in one region of the world than another.
    It's the medium through with we control our sexual health that is the key factor.

    In developed nations, there's later age of sexual relations, stable relationships, advocacy to focus on education/personal stability/growth, stable social milieu to nurture/promote such relationships and individual sexual independence, esp. at the control/hands of women, that helps us curb how we manage sex, at the individual to the societal level.

    Such luxuries are not afforded to those in Sub-Saharan Africa.....

    Aside: many females in Sub-saharan Africa get married as early as 8, 12, 14, 16 (mean age)

    So, speak to the situation, don't just preach something that isn't applicable at multiple levels of a situation! It has to translate as comprehensively as possible. And, as I had pointed out, there are many barriers at the social, political, cultural, environmental and psychological levels.

    Muti-targeting, multi-level interventions. Tier approaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Condoms and birth control don't lead to more children. But when someone is used to that much sex imagine if they are not there all the time.
    This statement assumes that there has been 100% compliance of contraception intervention. That there's this magic population where there's just amazing access to contraceptives that if we stop, what will happen? Please point me to such an instance of this hypothetical utopia.

    Otherwise, I think I'll let another poster resonate my feeling towards your arguments:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I think this theory is about as valid as Rand's Galt theory people have been talking about lately. They're both nothing more than hypothetical bullshit, the result of people trying to be too cute with their thinking.
    ***********

    Try ALL solutions that has shown to work (abstinence, one-partner promotion, contraceptives). I.e., anticipate and allow for safety nets when humans slip and make mistakes.

    Giving them an option of a safety net doesn't make them walk more carelessly on the tight rope. They have learned the lesson, live each day learning the lesson when they see their loved ones around them die of HIV/AIDS, see their child die due to malnurishment because they didn't have enough money to feed ALL the mouths. Sure there are barriers to factual/informed information, but, they're not that ignorant to their own plight.

    It's just that the reality is that there is NO other choice but to walk the tight rope, right from the start (it is the milieu in which they are born into). That regardless of if there was a safety net or not, makes it way less relevant, if intermittently, the safety net gets introduced (and taken away). Cuz, they still gotta keep on walking, regardless. It's just that it eases the burden along the way, for some of the inevitable falls, if there was a safety net there. Even if for a bit.


    ********


    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    You need to define "hypothetical bullshit"
    You did a fine job of providing an example of it as your arguments.

  10. #60
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    I'm still not convinced how any of the idea's you presented would be applyble without a change of culture and a political revolution, Qre:us.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

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