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  1. #1
    Sniffles
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    Default Discussing World War II; Peguy vs d@v3

    This started off as a personal conversation between me and d@v3 about a topic we're both interested in, and I suggested a thread be created - to both give a more formal format for the discussion and allow others who are interested to join in.

    So yes, the basic topic of this thread is the Second World War. If you have any interest related to this period in history, feel free to contribute. Seen any good movies about the war lately, read any good books, whatever! Just share it.

  2. #2
    Sniffles
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    At the moment, we're in the middle of discussing Pat Buchanan's latest book Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War": How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World, which seeks to challenge many commonly held assumptions about the origins and causes of the conflict.

    As I mentioned, I certainly can agree to Buchanan's argument that Chamberlain made numerous blunders that helped ignite the war, including the hastily made war gurantee to Poland. However, it was clear after Hitler broke the Munich agreement that a more determined approach was needed. Especially just within a month or so of breaking Munich, Hitler is now seeking territorial concessions from Poland(ie Danzig). Hopefully I'll get more into that later.

    Chamberlain did not fully abandoned diplomacy, in fact he still sought a diplomatic solution to the brewing crisis between Germany and Poland; even offering economic aid to Germany if it do so. However, Chamberlain wanted to deter Germany from attacking Poland and send a clear message to Hitler. Hitler thought Chamberlain was just bluffing.

    What I don't understand is the argument made that Chamberlain's war gurantee somehow forced Hitler to attack Poland.

    Anyways, I'll let d@v3 throw in his thoughts.

  3. #3
    Sniffles
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    And now for some music, along with color photage of panzers in action. One of my favorite of the Wehrmacht marches:
    [youtube="h8vZsmXUFAg"]Erika[/youtube]

  4. #4
    Senior Member Accept's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    What I don't understand is the argument made that Chamberlain's war gurantee somehow forced Hitler to attack Poland.
    I never thought of it as forcing Hitler to attack. By forging an agreement with Russia to share, and having reason to believe Chamberlain would back down, as every country seemed eager to do at the time, he simply took advantage of the justification to invade knowing the UK was in no position to effectively counter the action, even with a declaration of war. But then, Hitler was under the influence of some serious drugs by that time - if you know of any book that keeps that in mind in discussing Hitler's decisions, I'd enjoy reading it(?)

    Although not limited to WWII I always enjoy reading the books of William Manchester, as much a wordsmith as an author. The Glory And The Dream is a favorite, but also enjoyed The Arms Of Krupp, American Caesar, his unfinished The Last Lion and the fictional non-fiction Goodbye, Darkness - the other books, equally impressive, are removed from the time.
    “Naked to unknown forces, fortune evades mere understanding. The trial of effort.
    The dream of change. Such a place might Hell be to thought and action.”
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #5
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Accept View Post
    I never thought of it as forcing Hitler to attack. By forging an agreement with Russia to share, and having reason to believe Chamberlain would back down, as every country seemed eager to do at the time, he simply took advantage of the justification to invade knowing the UK was in no position to effectively counter the action, even with a declaration of war.
    Well I'm going by memory of what Buchanan specifically states on the matter. I know B.H. Liddell Hart(whom Buchanan cites) makes the argument that the war gurantee incited Hitler to demonstrate the futility of such a move, it stiffened Polish resistance to Hitler, thus giving Hitler no way out without "losing face".

    I can certainly see the second point of stiffening Polish resistance(that was probably one intent of the gurantee). However, I'm having trouble seeing the other points involved. It also seems to be based upon the assumption that the Poles had to give in to Hitler in order to avoid war. Poland was determined not to gone down the path Czechoslovakia did.

  6. #6
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    This thread shouldn't be "Peguy vs. d@v3" haha. I told you, I don't know nearly the details you do Peguy! Here is a small generalization of what I think:

    You are right, I don't think Chaimberlin had anything to do with Hitler pushing into Poland. Hitler was probably on drugs, hellbent on revenge and hatred. So he wanted to show "them" (The Jews, Gypsies.. etc..) and the allied powers from the first war, who was boss by making a new reich. ( The Third Reich)

    How would he go about doing this? Well, WWI tossed Europe into econimic turmoil. It was the perfect opportunity. They were most vulnerable as people were starving and inflation was so high. He raised morale by using words of revenge which created an increase in nationality. It was like striking a deal with the German people, by getting Germany back up on it's feet, the Hitler gained loyalty from the people. This was obviously a blind loyalty though.

    (The first Reich was the Roman Empire, the Second Reich was the Ottoman/Bizantine Empire?) He wanted to gain back all lands that belonged to both previous empires and then some, and this was his chance to do so.

    I read somewhere that aside from the drugs, Hitler may have had a variation of Neurosyphalis, which probably didn't help with his decisions (of course, the drugs didn't help either). He also probably had parkinsons which led to his shaking hand. He was terrified of coming off as "weak" so of course, he his the hand shaking as much as possible.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Accept's Avatar
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    The invasion of Poland also seems a reasonably safe move. Although it forced Britain and France to formally declare war, neither country had made effective preparations to threaten, and as it turned out, resist German aggression. France had created a static, defensive posture, while Britain had an insufficient force on the continent to accomplish anything more than a weak defense. Neither army could do much to enforce their government's declarations of war. I've always been more confused as to why Hitler decided to invade Russia early on, before insuring the stability of his other conquests, and then doing so with three separate objectives.
    “Naked to unknown forces, fortune evades mere understanding. The trial of effort.
    The dream of change. Such a place might Hell be to thought and action.”
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #8
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    If Hitler had not invaded Russia, the allies would have been in ALOT of trouble.

  9. #9
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    Adolf Hitler was suicidal.

    The West was stronger than he, so he attacked the West.

    This was his first suicide note, but just in case we didn't understand it, he attacked the Soviet Union as well.
    - Just to make it perfectly clear that he and the German people were going to commit suicide. And they did.

    Today we face the same situation as Islam has decided to commit suicide.

    And just to make it crystal clear, they are attacking the whole world.

    And just as Adolf Hitler and the Germans took an awful lot of us with them, Islam is determined to take an awful lot of us, with them.

    Listen, listen to them sing their siren song -

    Suicide is painless.
    It brings on many changes.


    .

  10. #10
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I don't know that much about WWII but I am fascinated by it, and want to learn more about it. I, too, would like to know if there are any good movies or books about the general topic. I'll be following this thread.

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