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  1. #81
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    That could be, not sure - it was my own thought. Would be interesting to see if that were the case, though....
    Well this is what one historian, John Lukacs, has to say on that issue:
    "That Hitler was the enemy of almost everything that was "bourgeois" needs no further explanation. He belongs to the end of an age, and he was defeated, and - for a while - bourgeois civilization has been restored, at least in Western Europe and West Germany. During a rising tide of barbarism his reputation may rise in the eyes of orderly people, who may regard him as a kind of Diocletian, a tough last architect of an imperial order. At the same time he might be revered by at least some of the New Barbarians."
    --The Hitler of History pg.268

  2. #82
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    I have just thought about an important point regarding the differences among people in the party, even among the leaders. A good example of this even after the assertion of the right-wing branch of the NSDAP can be seen in the example of Danzig, an area that is now Polish, if I'm not mistaken. (This would be something for you, Peguy! ).

    There were two very different people who were both National Socialist leaders of the Free City of Danzig, now called Gdansk, and Gau Warthegau, who were Albert Forster and Arthur Greiser, respectively. Hitler had basically given the Gauleiter free reign to decide how to "Germanicize" their respective populations. Whereas Forster was mild and extremely generous, Greiser was very hotheaded and quite strict, requiring all manner of tests and documentation to prove Aryan heritage. Forster believed that if he could win over the Danzig population, that would prove more fruitful than treating them as enemies from the start. Greiser believed that he was not living up to his orders or ideology if he did not implement a strict manner of Germanizing the region. The point being that not all leaders were cruel, although admittedly people did get transferred to camps even under Forster's rule; as compared to Greiser, however, this man was an angel. Greiser repeatedly asked for permission to engage in genocide, etc.

    So as you can see, people did not all lead in the same manner. The same was true for German soldiers - some soldiers were cruel without a doubt, but we cannot put them all under the same basket and call them all "Nazi thugs" just because they were fighting for that country under that regime....

    That builds into my point about the Poles who fought in the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS largely served while officially being registered as ethnic Germans.

  3. #83
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That builds into my point about the Poles who fought in the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS largely served while officially being registered as ethnic Germans.
    Exactly, which is why I thought it was relevant! After I mentioned that, I decided to delve and do more research and I found interesting Wikipedia articles on Forster and Greiser.

    Albert Forster

    Arthur Greiser
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Exactly, which is why I thought it was relevant! After I mentioned that, I decided to delve and do more research and I found interesting Wikipedia articles on Forster and Greiser.

    Albert Forster

    Arthur Greiser
    Thanks

    And here's something for you:
    Poles in the Wehrmacht

    Only very late in the war did Hitler agree to the creation of a Polish unit out of sheer desperation:
    Creation of Polish Unit

    On November 4, 1944 Headquarters of the Central Group of German Army (Heeresgruppe Mitte) announced basic principles. Germans were hoping that some 12,000 Poles would volunteer. They were promised same treatment as German soldiers, including salaries, death insurance and health service.

    In late fall of 1944, in several Polish towns offices for volunteers were created, some of them decorated with Polish flags. However, only 471 people signed up, in spite of German fabrications, stating that the Home Army announced its alliance with the Nazis. Desperate, the occupiers tried to use prisoners, but also with no success. Out of those who volunteered, most went AWOL after some time. In January 1945, in the course of the Vistula-Oder Offensive, the Red Army overran the remaining Polish territory still in German hands, thus rendering this attempt to enlist Poles into German service largely moot.

  5. #85
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post

    For example, I disagree with your take on this thread(and what appears to be an assault upon my integrity), yet I'm dealing with your remarks with considerable respect and maturity.
    My dear Peguy,

    To speak bluntly, I don't care about "respect", "integrity" or even "maturity".
    You should remember that I'm an ENTP, after all, and values are almost meaningless to me.
    I may look aggressive, but again, that's the way ENTP deal with hopeless romantics like you.

    You care about values, I care about FACTS and RESULTS.



    I'm not saying that we can't discuss what happened to civilians, but please show discretion when doing so. I'm speaking from personal experiences, where I've seen discussions on that topic degenerate into flame wars with graphic pictures of causualties being thrown left and right in an attempt to score points.
    I don't care about "scoring points" or "flame wars" either.

    Should this topic degenerate, it would be because you pushed it that way.

    You live in a Ideal world where soldiers are "brave", where they defend their country, where Jews or atrocities never existed (or shouldn't be shown for the sake of "maturity").

    Well, I'm sorry, but the time of Chivalry is no more. Modern war is only about Violence, Atrocities, Murder, and Pain.
    Welcome to the REAL world.

    I don't care for your "what if" scenario either, because they have a sole common aim: to elude the real goals of the Nazis, and the effects of their policies. So again, that's whitewashing, I'm sorry.

    I hope you agree with me in saying that's not needed here, if anything out of respect towards the suffering of those people. That's why I said we should keep this thread clean, and address such delicate issues as mature adults.
    I don't care.

    The way millions of civilians across the world were wiped out, the way they endured a cruel agony is NOT a "delicate issue".

    I'd say you are not mature enough to face it, to face the real truth.



    That's a rather simplistic interpretation of a complex situation. The Waffen-SS were soldiers and they fought alongside the regular Wehrmacht. The Allgemeine-SS were the ones largely responsible for internal security responsibilities, such as running the camps. That's the basic distinction between the two wings of the SS, although of course there were overlaps between them.
    Negationism!

    The Waffen-SS are directly responsible for countless murders of innocent civilians.
    Should I remind you what the Einsatzgruppen were?
    Should I remind you what the "Holocaust by bullets" means, and how it was implemented?


    I'm well aware of the difference between the two, but I'm also aware of the relationship between the two as well. And distinguishing between the two still doesn't change the fact that Red Army soldiers did commit atrocities.
    I think that if this thread degenerates, it's because you have EXTREME political views, and extreme-right sympathies, and you are well aware of it.

    So don't fake this comedy, you're not a good actor.

    I think you know the consequences of your posts, and which reactions they would instill for some of us.



    There were volunteer units of Russians and Ukrainians. Poles were a different matter. The Poles who did serve in the Waffen-SS were largely registered as ethnic Germans within the occupied territories. The proposal of recruiting Poles into the Waffen-SS or Wehrmacht was long rejected untill the last moment, when a few half-ass attempts were made. Of course few Poles volunteered at that point.
    You're like a kid who is trying not to confess the obvious.


    Now, how one turns that into a grandiose scheme of me whitewashing history is anybody's guess. Especially considering that I even explained to Victor that I collect memorabilia from various sides of the war. In all probability, my collection related to the Red Army is larger than the one related to the Waffen-SS/Wehrmacht.

    There's plenty more photos and other stuff I wish to share, but simply haven't gotten around to doing so yet. I've been planning on posting photos of the American, British, French, Italian, and Japanese armies here as well.
    The fact that you collect all these "memorabilias" is interesting, but irrelevant to the facts.

    Again, you're a romantic kid fascinated with dangerous stuff.



    Well here's the difference between you and me: I've been trying to maintain a mature composure throughout this thread, dealing respectfully with the various perspectives and sensibilities related to this topic. You seem eager to disrespect the perspectives of others and jump to conclusions.
    The difference between you and me is that you place your values higher than the real world.
    You idealize everything. I don't because I focus on the real outcomes, something you don't want to hear about. That's F versus T.

    A "mature composure" is meaningless. "Bravery" is meaningless.
    I would prefer a rational, pragmatic composure.


    Granted, you have legitimate sensitivities towards the Waffen-SS because of what happened to your family. I fully understand and I expressed my deepest sympathies for your lost. But that does not justify you assaulting my integrity and falsely accusing me of whitewashing history.
    I don't care.

    You are purposefully whitewashing history and you know it. I'm sorry to repeat it.

    I have great respect for you Blackmail! and I often enjoy discussing topics with you. That's why I've shown much patience and restraint in dealing with you here, along with the willingness to forgive any misunderstanding.

    I'm more than willing to discuss this topic further with you, but please stop with all these false accusations. If you need me to clarify my position on the Waffen-SS, then ask me to clarify.

    Can you agree to that?
    I don't care about your patience. I don't care about what you feel.

    I care about outcomes, facts, and the practical aspects of totalitarian Ideologies. Maybe, if you would have read Hannah Arendt (for instance), you would understand.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #86
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post

    Only very late in the war did Hitler agree to the creation of a Polish unit out of sheer desperation:
    No.

    Many Poles were enlisted or volunteered in various SS units, mostly because of their sheer hatred against the Jews. For instance, thousands of them volunteered in the SS-Galizien... and about a third of the SS who had the duty to guard the extermination camps were in fact ethnic Poles.

    Again, why do you try to hide the obvious?

    Why do you want to keep your thread "clean" when it deals about dirtiness?

    It's pointless!

    (By the way, your wikipedia article is a pure product of right-wing Polish negationism. It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic. So forget it!)
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #87
    Sniffles
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    So be it Blackmail!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I think that if this thread degenerate, it's because you have EXTREME political views, and extreme-right sympathies, and you are well aware of it.

    So don't fake this comedy, you're not a good actor.
    If you push the rewind button, you'd see that this thread was going quite fine untill first Victor and now especially you decided to show up.

    You accuse me of Right wing sympathies. Well you sir have extreme left-wing sympathies, and you certainly show it off quite a bit here.

    Personally I really don't care, but since you brought up the topic.

  8. #88
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    No.

    Many Poles were enlisted or volunteered in various SS units, mostly because of sheer hatred against the Jews. For instance, thousands of them volunteered in the SS-Galizien... and about a third of the SS who had the duty to guard the extermination camps were in fact ethnic Poles.
    Do you have a source for this?

  9. #89
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    *Ahem* Let's not derail the subject, now, shall we? This is not about personal attacks, this is about WWII, and I prefer to KEEP it that way, thank you very much.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

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    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    National Socialism was attempting to create a Weltanschauung in which all aspects of everyday life would have a code of ethics. In many ways, it was a very romantic movement - a return to Blut und Boden, honoring your ancestors, and returning to medieval aspects of chivalry, bravery, and honor. At the same time, the government should play a role to ensure that an economic system is designed to encourage and foster this return through a progressive turn. That means, you should have the advantages of the past while enjoying the positives of the now. In essence, this idea would have been perfect if it had not been taken to extremes.

    Alas, it WAS taken to extremes - to greater extremes than we have ever known...and combine that fact with the fact that these were times of great unrest and unprecedented development - it was a recipe for disaster.

    Had these ideals been implemented EARLIER it might have happened peacefully; however, this was the last 'go' at romanticism. Everyone sensed it, and so it was taken to an extreme where the romanticism was perverted and turned into grotesque monstrosity.

    However, not everyone embraced this extremity. And I think it would be a mistake to totally disregard every German soldier's sacrifice based on the terrible behavior of some individuals and their fanatical leaders....

    Frankly, I don't know what to say after I've read that.

    You mean that the Jews and the other Untermenschen should have been "peacefully" wiped out, that they were the victims of romantic, brave, and honorable would-be knights?

    You know, the rise of Nazism was in fact a very rational and predictable outcome. It wasn't the monstruous side of perverted Ideals (like what you are trying to say), it was the REAL and ONLY practical use of these ideas.
    Nazism is not a side effect of Blut und Boden, it is its only possible result.

    I'm sorry to be blunt, but I've read enough convenient lies and cowardly denials for this day.

    Even Heinrich Heine (a real romantic) predicted, one century before it really happens, that one day the Germans would slaughter all their Jews (see "Zur Geschichte der Philosophie und Religion in Deutschland").

    And at last but not the least, Nazism was a modern movement, since it was based on a full IDEOLOGY, just like Stalinism, or Islamism.

    Let me recommend you to read on that subject that dear Hannah: "Über den Totalitarismus", especially when she writes about the quest of identity, and the end of traditional social classes after WWI.

    (I should quote her, but I'm really tired to play the professor. And furthermore, I think it's meaningless, because with you or Peguy, we are obviously not facing rational or factual posters)
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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