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  1. #61
    Sniffles
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    That's a very interesting story Blackmail, and I thank you for sharing it with us. You also have my sympathies in regards to the lost of family members at Auschwitz.

    I would appreciate it if we keep this thread clean and not post photos of the Holocaust or other atrocities of the war.

    Now as I stated earlier, the relationship between the Waffen-SS and the brutal nature of the Nazi regime is not something one can wish away or pretend never existed. I have never said otherwise, and I highly resent the accusation of me trying to whitewash it. One can still keep that in mind while admiring their fighting capabilities as soldiers.

    I have the same attitude towards the Red Army, which fought bravely in the war, even though serving a regime as brutal as the Nazi one. And let's not forget the many atrocities committed by them on their march across Eastern Europe.

    Now I do find it interesting that nobody seems to object to the posting of Red Army soldiers, but the posting of Waffen-SS soldiers causes such hysteria. This considering the fact that there's more pictures of Red Army soldiers than of the Waffen-SS within this thread.

    And yes, I'm more than aware of the ends of Nazi ideology. Me and heart have been discussing the origins and nature of such here.

    I'm of Polish descent, which means I would've been considered subhuman and unable to volunteer in the Waffen-SS if I were alive back then. I'm more than aware of what the SS did to the Polish nation during it's brutal occupation following the 1939 campaign, and I give my highest respects for the members of the Home Army who rose up against them in 1944. I also pay my respects to the Polish soldiers who fought not just in 1939, but on various other fronts throughout the war.

    Nevertheless, I also give respect to the bravery of the German soldiers who fought in the war. I also give respect to the bravery of the soldiers of the Japanese Imperial Army. They fought and died like anyother soldier in anyother army. Yes, their countries were engaged in unjust causes, no doubt about that, but that doesn't give one a right to indiscriminately piss on them either.

    I'm hardly alone in doing so, and many veterans of the Allied side have done so too. I already mentioned that one of them was my grandfather, who fought in the Pacific.

    I can also recall an incident of Waffen-SS veterans visiting the battlefields of Kursk to lay a wreath at a Russian war memorial and they were greeted by Red Army veterans.

    So all these wild accusations of me whitewashing history or whatnot is beyond absurd.

    And by the way... Did you know that almost every SS hired in Auschwitz were catholics?
    Yes actually I am aware of that. I have a photo of a funeral for a SS man with Catholic crucifixs in full display. Himmler once remarked to Hitler about that being one major difference between the SS and the SA: the SS were mostly Catholic while the SA were mostly Protestant.

    I'm also aware that Catholics were very active in the German resistance. This is especially true of Colonel von Stauffenberg, who was a devout Catholic.

    And let's not forget that there were Catholics fighting with the Allies. One example, Fr. Edmund Walsh played an important role in American diplomacy during the war, and was a major advocate of American involvement. He was a major rival of the Nazi geo-political thinker Karl Haushofer, who was key in developing the concept of lebensraum.

    Perhaps I can also mention St. Maximilian Kolbe, who died at Auschwitz? Maybe also St. Edith Stein, who suffered the same fate?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So all these wild accusations of me whitewashing history or whatnot is beyond absurd.
    Absolutely.

  3. #63
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I'm of Polish descent, which means I would've been considered subhuman and unable to volunteer in the Waffen-SS if I were alive back then. I'm more than aware of what the SS did to the Polish nation during it's brutal occupation following the 1939 campaign, and I give my highest respects for the members of the Home Army who rose up against them in 1944. I also pay my respects to the Polish soldiers who fought not just in 1939, but on various other fronts throughout the war.
    I'm of Indian heritage, but I know nothing about my biological family. It is my belief though, that my [biological] grandfather fought in Monte Cassino. As for my adoptive grandfather, he was in the U.S. Army and hit by a sniper in a forest in West Germany. I was lucky enough to read a letter that he had sent home telling about how he had been shot and the story behind it. It started out saying "I apologize for all the holes in the paper because, indeed, the letter was serverly censored (holes were poked all over the paper).

    He was walking through the forest when he was sniped in the back. He lay there and finally the medic came to him. The medic started dressing him then the sniper hit the medic and killed him instantly. The medic fell on top of my grandfather. He managed to push the medic off but he had to lay there for quite some time before they located and neutralized the sniper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Nevertheless, I also give respect to the bravery of the German soldiers who fought in the war. I also give respect to the bravery of the soldiers of the Japanese Imperial Army. They fought and died like anyother soldier in anyother army. Yes, their countries were engaged in unjust causes, no doubt about that, but that doesn't give one a right to indiscriminately piss on them either.
    Yes, the although the Axis were fighting for unjust causes, they has just as much fight in them as the Allies did. They were just as devoted and loyal to their cause as we were to ours. So it would be unfair to write them off without any respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So all these wild accusations of me whitewashing history or whatnot is beyond absurd.
    You have not whitewashed history. History has to be told bluntly.... "tell 'em like it is!" The minute one starts to put a "romantic" spin on things, and/or "butter" up the truth, then he/she is guilty of tainting the truth!

  4. #64
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I would appreciate it if we keep this thread clean and not post photos of the Holocaust or other atrocities of the war.
    Why?

    It's WWII. And even more, it's the real truth behind this war, even if it's a truth you don't like, or don't want to show.
    Why would you prefer to keep this thread "clean"? (interesting choice of word, by the way... :rolli

    There is no such thing as a "clean" war, and ESPECIALLY the WWII!

    The civilian death toll has been many times higher than the military one. So I'm sorry, but you have to mention what happened to those civilians.

    Now as I stated earlier, the relationship between the Waffen-SS and the brutal nature of the Nazi regime is not something one can wish away or pretend never existed. I have never said otherwise, and I highly resent the accusation of me trying to whitewash it. One can still keep that in mind while admiring their fighting capabilities as soldiers.
    The SS were solely created for a single purpose: to fulfill the goals of the Nazi ideology.
    Thus, you can't say they were "ordinary soldiers", or even grant them this title.

    I have the same attitude towards the Red Army, which fought bravely in the war, even though serving a regime as brutal as the Nazi one. And let's not forget the many atrocities committed by them on their march across Eastern Europe.
    Again, do not compare the average russian soldier and NKVD officials.
    It seems you are fascinated by these "elite" regiments. Why?

    Now I do find it interesting that nobody seems to object to the posting of Red Army soldiers, but the posting of Waffen-SS soldiers causes such hysteria. This considering the fact that there's more pictures of Red Army soldiers than of the Waffen-SS within this thread.
    I would prefer not to follow you on this "slippery slope" (as the French saying).
    It doesn't smell good.

    I'm of Polish descent, which means I would've been considered subhuman and unable to volunteer in the Waffen-SS if I were alive back then.
    You're wrong. There were many SS units solely made with Slav volunteers, and that includes Poles, Ukrainians and Russians.

    So in that case, your origin doesn't mean anything.

    I can also recall an incident of Waffen-SS veterans visiting the battlefields of Kursk to lay a wreath at a Russian war memorial and they were greeted by Red Army veterans.

    So all these wild accusations of me whitewashing history or whatnot is beyond absurd.
    When you consider only one side of the conflict, when you "romanticize" the glory of those "soldiers", yes, it's whitewashing. I'm sorry for that.

    I am curious to know why some posters here never dare to mention the word "Jew", just as if it was an obscene word, something not-to-pronounce-ever.


    Yes actually I am aware of that. I have a photo of a funeral for a SS man with Catholic crucifixs in full display. Himmler once remarked to Hitler about that being one major difference between the SS and the SA: the SS were mostly Catholic while the SA were mostly Protestant.

    I'm also aware that Catholics were very active in the German resistance. This is especially true of Colonel von Stauffenberg, who was a devout Catholic.

    And let's not forget that there were Catholics fighting with the Allies. One example, Fr. Edmund Walsh played an important role in American diplomacy during the war, and was a major advocate of American involvement. He was a major rival of the Nazi geo-political thinker Karl Haushofer, who was key in developing the concept of lebensraum.

    Perhaps I can also mention St. Maximilian Kolbe, who died at Auschwitz? Maybe also St. Edith Stein, who suffered the same fate?
    What did you think of pope Pius XII, who didn't hide his sympathy towards the Right Wing Fascists?

    The mere idea that such an hideous bastard could be canonized is making me throw up.

    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #65
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d@v3 View Post
    You have not whitewashed history. History has to be told bluntly.... "tell 'em like it is!" The minute one starts to put a "romantic" spin on things, and/or "butter" up the truth, then he/she is guilty of tainting the truth!
    Since you mention that word, presenting the SS as "ordinary" soldiers, is intentionally tainting the truth.

    When you spread false tales about "glory", bravery", "respect" and such meaningless concepts... yes, it's a romantic lie.

    Look at Peguy: he asked not to show any "atrocities of war". But the fact is, those atrocities weren't isolated incidents, they even were more than commonplace: they were the real stuff of what WWII was made about. Denying this is the real hysteria.


    So guess who is really irrational within this thread?

    Who is whitewashing what, and why?

    Guess why!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #66
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Why?

    It's WWII. And even more, it's the real truth behind this war, even if it's a truth you don't like, or don't want to show.
    Indeed it is part of the war. It's also a very deeply sensitive topic for many as well, which does arise heated emotions which creates a huge mess. Personally, I have nothing against discussing and showing all the various aspects of the war, and do so all the time elsewhere.

    Why would you prefer to keep this thread "clean"? (interesting choice of word, by the way... :rolli
    Well for one, this forum is not formally dedicated to such topics. There's a wide variety of people here with different sensibilities concerning this particular topic. So Im interested in respecting those various sensibilities, even if I may disagree with them.

    For example, I disagree with your take on this thread(and what appears to be an assault upon my integrity), yet I'm dealing with your remarks with considerable respect and maturity.

    There is no such thing as a "clean" war, and ESPECIALLY the WWII!

    The civilian death toll has been many times higher than the military one. So I'm sorry, but you have to mention what happened to those civilians.
    I'm not saying that we can't discuss what happened to civilians, but please show discretion when doing so. I'm speaking from personal experiences, where I've seen discussions on that topic degenerate into flame wars with graphic pictures of causualties being thrown left and right in an attempt to score points.

    I hope you agree with me in saying that's not needed here, if anything out of respect towards the suffering of those people. That's why I said we should keep this thread clean, and address such delicate issues as mature adults.

    The SS were solely created for a single purpose: to fulfill the goals of the Nazi ideology.
    Thus, you can't say they were "ordinary soldiers", or even grant them this title.
    That's a rather simplistic interpretation of a complex situation. The Waffen-SS were soldiers and they fought alongside the regular Wehrmacht. The Allgemeine-SS were the ones largely responsible for internal security responsibilities, such as running the camps. That's the basic distinction between the two wings of the SS, although of course there were overlaps between them.

    Again, do not compare the average russian soldier and NKVD officials.
    I'm well aware of the difference between the two, but I'm also aware of the relationship between the two as well. And distinguishing between the two still doesn't change the fact that Red Army soldiers did commit atrocities.

    You're wrong. There were many SS units solely made with Slav volunteers, and that includes Poles, Ukrainians and Russians.

    So in that case, your origin doesn't mean anything.
    There were volunteer units of Russians and Ukrainians. Poles were a different matter. The Poles who did serve in the Waffen-SS were largely registered as ethnic Germans within the occupied territories. The proposal of recruiting Poles into the Waffen-SS or Wehrmacht was long rejected untill the last moment, when a few half-ass attempts were made. Of course few Poles volunteered at that point.


    When you consider only one side of the conflict, when you "romanticize" the glory of those "soldiers", yes, it's whitewashing. I'm sorry for that.
    And exactly how I have done so here? I began this thread discussing about what the ALLIED leaders did or could've done better when dealing with Hitler in the build-up to the war. I posted photos of American and Soviet soldiers meeting on the Elbe(which was the first set of photos I posted here). I posted photos of Polish soldiers during the 1939 campaign, along with of course some of Wehrmacht soldiers. I posted photos of Soviet soldiers fighting in Berlin. I posted Chamberlain's radio broadcast announcing the declaration of war with Germany. I posted a Soviet military march.

    At best, there were three, four, or five posts made by myself within this thread having to do with the Waffen-SS, and only two of those deals with them to any great length: the first one where I posted 5 pictures of them in combat, and other one answering YLJ.

    The other three largely are me making a reference to having memorabilia related to the Waffen-SS, and the other two involves a picture of three Waffen-SS soldiers playing with a kitten, and Himmler looking over a captured Polish flag.

    Now, how one turns that into a grandiose scheme of me whitewashing history is anybody's guess. Especially considering that I even explained to Victor that I collect memorabilia from various sides of the war. In all probability, my collection related to the Red Army is larger than the one related to the Waffen-SS/Wehrmacht.

    There's plenty more photos and other stuff I wish to share, but simply haven't gotten around to doing so yet. I've been planning on posting photos of the American, British, French, Italian, and Japanese armies here as well.


    I am curious that some posters here never dare to mention the word "Jew", just as if it was an obscene word, something not-to-pronounce-ever.
    Ok looking back over the thread thus far, in what contexts would Jews have been mentioned anyways? If you think that not enough attention has been paid to the Holocaust here, well keep two things in mind:

    1)This thread is still in its relative infancy. Many of the topics already discussed haven't not been fully addressed yet; such as the one between me and heart about the origins of Nazi ideology or the first one concerning the diplomatic blunders that started the war. Then there's also untypable's questions about whether the war would've still occured if the Nazis never took power in Germany.

    2) If you think more attention should be given to the Holocaust here, then just introduce it into the discussion. No need to make accusations against the other contributors to this thread.


    What did you think of pope Pius XII, who didn't hide his sympathy towards the Right Wing Fascists?
    Overall I think highly of him, considering he was stuck between a rock and hard place. I agree there was more he could've done during the war, but I don't care how so many people are eager to lynch him posthumously.

    Now do you mind explaining what you mean by sympathy for "right wing fascists"?

    The mere idea that such an hideous bastard could be canonized is making me throw up.
    Well here's the difference between you and me: I've been trying to maintain a mature composure throughout this thread, dealing respectfully with the various perspectives and sensibilities related to this topic. You seem eager to disrespect the perspectives of others and jump to conclusions.

    Granted, you have legitimate sensitivities towards the Waffen-SS because of what happened to your family. I fully understand and I expressed my deepest sympathies for your lost. But that does not justify you assaulting my integrity and falsely accusing me of whitewashing history.

    I have great respect for you Blackmail! and I often enjoy discussing topics with you. That's why I've shown much patience and restraint in dealing with you here, along with the willingness to forgive any misunderstanding.

    I'm more than willing to discuss this topic further with you, but please stop with all these false accusations. If you need me to clarify my position on the Waffen-SS, then ask me to clarify.

    Can you agree to that?

  7. #67
    Sniffles
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    Here's a tribute to the veterans of the Winter War, a forgotten front of WWII:

    [youtube="fbndUSHL9A0"]tribute to brave finnish soldiers[/youtube]

  8. #68
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That's a very interesting story Blackmail, and I thank you for sharing it with us. You also have my sympathies in regards to the lost of family members at Auschwitz.

    I would appreciate it if we keep this thread clean and not post photos of the Holocaust or other atrocities of the war.

    Now as I stated earlier, the relationship between the Waffen-SS and the brutal nature of the Nazi regime is not something one can wish away or pretend never existed. I have never said otherwise, and I highly resent the accusation of me trying to whitewash it. One can still keep that in mind while admiring their fighting capabilities as soldiers.

    I have the same attitude towards the Red Army, which fought bravely in the war, even though serving a regime as brutal as the Nazi one. And let's not forget the many atrocities committed by them on their march across Eastern Europe.

    Now I do find it interesting that nobody seems to object to the posting of Red Army soldiers, but the posting of Waffen-SS soldiers causes such hysteria. This considering the fact that there's more pictures of Red Army soldiers than of the Waffen-SS within this thread.

    And yes, I'm more than aware of the ends of Nazi ideology. Me and heart have been discussing the origins and nature of such here.

    I'm of Polish descent, which means I would've been considered subhuman and unable to volunteer in the Waffen-SS if I were alive back then. I'm more than aware of what the SS did to the Polish nation during it's brutal occupation following the 1939 campaign, and I give my highest respects for the members of the Home Army who rose up against them in 1944. I also pay my respects to the Polish soldiers who fought not just in 1939, but on various other fronts throughout the war.

    Nevertheless, I also give respect to the bravery of the German soldiers who fought in the war. I also give respect to the bravery of the soldiers of the Japanese Imperial Army. They fought and died like anyother soldier in anyother army. Yes, their countries were engaged in unjust causes, no doubt about that, but that doesn't give one a right to indiscriminately piss on them either.

    I'm hardly alone in doing so, and many veterans of the Allied side have done so too. I already mentioned that one of them was my grandfather, who fought in the Pacific.

    I can also recall an incident of Waffen-SS veterans visiting the battlefields of Kursk to lay a wreath at a Russian war memorial and they were greeted by Red Army veterans.

    So all these wild accusations of me whitewashing history or whatnot is beyond absurd.


    Yes actually I am aware of that. I have a photo of a funeral for a SS man with Catholic crucifixs in full display. Himmler once remarked to Hitler about that being one major difference between the SS and the SA: the SS were mostly Catholic while the SA were mostly Protestant.

    I'm also aware that Catholics were very active in the German resistance. This is especially true of Colonel von Stauffenberg, who was a devout Catholic.

    And let's not forget that there were Catholics fighting with the Allies. One example, Fr. Edmund Walsh played an important role in American diplomacy during the war, and was a major advocate of American involvement. He was a major rival of the Nazi geo-political thinker Karl Haushofer, who was key in developing the concept of lebensraum.

    Perhaps I can also mention St. Maximilian Kolbe, who died at Auschwitz? Maybe also St. Edith Stein, who suffered the same fate?
    I could of course just give you reputation points, but I wanted to publicly say that you are doing a great job portraying a balanced view on BOTH sides of the conflict. Your pictures and statements regarding both aspects are very insightful. I'm proud of the fact that in spite of the difficulties you also might have had had you lived at that time, you are willing to honor all brave men who fight on behalf of their respective countries. Kudos to you.

    A person who is trying to whitewash history would have glorified one side while failing to acknowledge the sacrifices of others. There may or may not be other people doing this on this thread, but it is surely not you.

    Please continue. Thanks.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  9. #69
    Sniffles
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    Now getting back to heart. Yes I'm aware of the volkisch movement and much of its origins. As you noted, it tended to glorify ruralism and embraced a form race-based pagan mysticism as opposed to Christianity. That's the usual image we have of it.

    Although neo-paganism was part of some strains of volkisch thought, most commonly it asserted itself within German society as the embracing of Protestantism as the most Germanic form of spirituality as opposed to Catholicism. Martin Luther was hailed as the liberator of the German spirit from Papist control.

    Interestingly enough, even the neo-pagans glorified Protestantism and Luther.

    Not what is the connection here with the Nazis. Well yes, there were strains of neo-paganism and volkisch "blood and soil" sentinment within its ranks, most notably with Richard Walther Darré. However, much of the original constinuency of the Nazi party was more urban-based. Hitler largely sought to appeal to the urban working class, and thus there's references to "blood and soil" in his early speeches.

    Most of that largely resided with Himmler and the SS, and Hitler often dismissed Himmler's occultism as utter rubbish. He didn't even care for Alfred Rosenberg's book "Myth of the 20th century", and was dismissive of that as well.

    Interesting about Rosenberg's book is that there's more references to the Medieval mystic Meister Eckhart than anybody else. Even Jesus is referenced to quite positively, following the argument made by Chamberlain that Jesus was an Aryan who broke with the corrupt Jewish tradition. Rosenberg also held Martin Luther in high regard.

    I'll try getting further into this later.

  10. #70
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    I could of course just give you reputation points, but I wanted to publicly say that you are doing a great job portraying a balanced view on BOTH sides of the conflict. Your pictures and statements regarding both aspects are very insightful. I'm proud of the fact that in spite of the difficulties you also might have had had you lived at that time, you are willing to honor all brave men who fight on behalf of their respective countries. Kudos to you.

    A person who is trying to whitewash history would have glorified one side while failing to acknowledge the sacrifices of others. There may or may not be other people doing this on this thread, but it is surely not you.

    Please continue. Thanks.

    Thank you.

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