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  1. #11
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm View Post
    I don't know that much about WWII but I am fascinated by it, and want to learn more about it. I, too, would like to know if there are any good movies or books about the general topic. I'll be following this thread.
    Hello Hmm, it's nice to think of you out there in California.

    However if you are interested in starting to learn why Adolf Hitler and the Germans committed suicide, you might start by reading Alice Miller.

    Alice Miller is a German herself and writes in German but has good English translations.

    And here is Alice Miller on Adolf Hitler, just click on - This Is A War - ABUSE

    You can see her writing by clicking on YouTube - The roots of violence.

    If you wish to understand Hitler and the Germans it is best to start with the book, "For Your Own Good", by Alice Miller

    And interestingly, Islam has exactly the same reasons for committing suicide.

    Victor.
    Likes elodia liked this post

  2. #12
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    World war 2 waqs more a global war than a european war. even if it did not happen, it would break into several wars. the cause of this war ois inevitable and would vbreakl out eventually. The japanese were already very aggressive in their expansion , so even if nothinhg happens in the european foront, war will strilll break out in the asian front.

    It was a war of imperialism against freedom , thje west against thre east. the colonial powers verse the colonized. the people did many things to check the outbreak of war, hyet it was inevitable precisely because humans are aggressive and expansionistic in nauture. Onlty the invention of the nuclear bomb has stoped the outbreak of such a war in the future.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  3. #13
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    More interesting is if Germany diud not produce a hitler, who would be the first aggresor in this war? The soviets or the japanese?
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  4. #14
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by d@v3 View Post
    This thread shouldn't be "Peguy vs. d@v3" haha. I told you, I don't know nearly the details you do Peguy!
    It just means that the discussion was initiated by us two. It doesn't necessarily mean hostility.

    (The first Reich was the Roman Empire, the Second Reich was the Ottoman/Bizantine Empire?)
    No, the First Reich was the Holy Roman Empire founded by Charlemagne but then dissolved in 1806. The Second Reich was founded by Otto von Bismarck and lasted from 1870-1918.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm View Post
    I don't know that much about WWII but I am fascinated by it, and want to learn more about it. I, too, would like to know if there are any good movies or books about the general topic. I'll be following this thread.
    You can try looking for the Time Life series on the war. They're pretty much found in every public library, and offer much for beginners and experts alike.

    As for movies, I'd highly recommend The Longest Day, which is the classic film about D-Day.

    I'll get back to Accept's comments at another time.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by untypable View Post
    More interesting is if Germany diud not produce a hitler, who would be the first aggresor in this war?
    If Hitler had not existed, another would have been created and supported.

    Judgment at Nuremberg (1961)

    The Volk

  6. #16
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    If Hitler had not existed, another would have been created and supported.

    Judgment at Nuremberg (1961)

    The Volk
    In other words, one cannot ignore the importance of nationalism in the roots of the conflict?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In other words, one cannot ignore the importance of nationalism in the roots of the conflict?
    What happened in Germany went far deeper than Hilter. It started in the 19th century. Hitler was just one man. Without the Volk and all that went on before in the 19th century and early 20th, I don't think it would have been possible to sway people into going along with Nazism. One has to understand what the Volk was. Nazism grew up out of the Volk, Hitler didn't create it. The people were ready for a Hitler and if not Hitler, another. It was the dark side of Romanticism, sort of like French Revolution (The Terror) became the darker side of Enlightenment.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    What happened in Germany went far deeper than Hilter. It started in the 19th century. Hitler was just one man. Without the Volk and all that went on before in the 19th century and early 20th, I don't think it would have been possible to sway people into going along with Nazism. One has to understand what the Volk was. Nazism grew up out of the Volk, Hitler didn't create it. The people were ready for a Hitler and if not Hitler, another.
    Yes, that all ties into my point about nationalism. "Volk" is simply the German version of the concept. The same concept exists among other peoples, especially the Slavs - but it goes by the term Narod.

    As for the developments of German nationalism, it actually goes long before the 19th century, it dates to Medieval times actually.

    One reason why German nationalism was more focused on racial purity than most other European nationalisms(like the French) was because ethnic Germans often found themselves intermixed and living in close proxmity to non-Germans, especially in Bohemia(now Czech Republic). Interestingly, the original criteria for determining one as German was linguistical, not racial - that was the basic rule of determining ethnicity during the Medieval period.

    This was even true during the time of Johann Gottfried von Herder, and even to a considerable extent the early period of German nationalism which emerged out of the War of Liberation against Napoleon.

    One emigre stated that Hitler was neither inevitable nor an accident in regards to German history. That's probably the best way to sum it up.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes, that all ties into my point about nationalism. "Volk" is simply the German version of the concept. The same concept exists among other peoples, especially the Slavs - but it goes by the term Narod.

    As for the developments of German nationalism, it actually goes long before the 19th century, it dates to Medieval times actually.

    One reason why German nationalism was more focused on racial purity more than other European nationalisms(like the French) was because ethnic Germans often found themselves intermixed and living in close proxmity to non-Germans, especially in Bohemia(now Czech Republic). Interestingly, the original criteria for determining one as German was linguistical, not racial - that was the basic rule of determining ethnicity during the Medieval period

    This was even true during the time of Johann Gottfried von Herder, and even to a considerable extent the early period of German nationalism which emerged out of the War of Liberation against Napoleon.
    Yes, the seeds were there for a long time but in the 19th century the Romantic movement really gave things like Volk and other supernationalistic movements a real push forward to the greater exclusion of rational thought. So from 1650 to 1800AD the German Enlightenment's influence was for more rational thought, after this there's more of a view to find truth through Feeling and Naturalism linked mystically to Nationalism.

    Then economic pressures also played a part and provided the ripe ground for Hitler and his handlers to whip into a freenzie, but they had not created the nature of the freenzie itself.

    People also tend to separate Hitler out away from his handlers and those who helped place him in power. As if one man whipped a nation of innocents by-standers into a frenzie. (This is how my high school education presented it to me, very different from college history) That's why I recommend the movie above.

  10. #20
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Yes, the seeds were there for a long time but in the 19th century the Romantic movement really gave things like Volk and other supernationalistic movements a real push forward to the greater exclusion of rational thought. So from 1650 to 1800AD the German Enlightenment's influence was for more rational thought, after this there's more of a view to find truth through Feeling and Naturalism linked mystically to Nationalism.
    Yes and no. Early romantic nationalism was tied highly to Liberal ideals. It was really after the failures of Liberal attempts at pan-German unity in the 1848 revolutions that we begin to see the more aggressive forms of nationalism that are familiar to us.

    Concerning the argument about the enlightenment, Germany was home for many proto-Romantic developments throughout the 18th century. Von Herder is one example. The Sturm und Drang movement is another.

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