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  1. #101
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Should we ban pictures of Hiroshima too? Or of the Nankin massacre?

    Should we post only "artistic" pictures of the war?

    You know that the ugly pictures are as real as the beautiful ones. In fact, they're even truer, even if they are less "acceptable" for our romantic friends.

    Truth is not a matter of morality nor of beauty.

    So, tell me, where is the limit when you begin to justify censorship?
    Bravo. That's how censorship starts-a suggestion. Then that suggestion becomes popular.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  2. #102
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    OK.

    Let's make a test.



    This is Hiroshima, August 6, 1945.

    What you are seeing is the simultaneous death of about 70.000 human beings.
    Is this a beautiful picture?
    Is this a "tasteful" picture?

    When you see them from far away, atomic bombs have a terrifying, abstract beauty, and they are incredible symbols, either of power or human madness.

    But now, let's have a closer look to what really happened on ground level. Since those pictures are more "shocking" (they were taken before the streets were "cleaned"), I will only post a link, but you have been warned.

    Bomb (Images & Pictures)

    ---

    It's the same event, only the scale is different. So tell me, which pictures are truer? What kind of reality do they reveal (if any)?

    This is World War II. This is History, not the romantic aspect of it.

    Tell me, where is the "glory", the "bravery" of this?

    Thousands and thousands of half-burned naked corpses of children and women, as far as the horizon stretches? This is not a fiction, nor a movie, this really happened.

    Would you prefer that I post the smiling faces of the Enola Gay crew instead of this? Would you prefer Hollywood?
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 03-08-2009 at 08:21 PM.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #103
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Another "soft" video.

    These are the ruins of Berlin (may 1945).

    [YOUTUBE=zcnEDTnyC7g]Berlin ruins[/YOUTUBE]

    Miles, and miles, and miles of ruins.

    Some may marvel at the destructive power of the allied forces, but what I see is the suicide of the European civilization.

    Why?

    Is this "tasteful"? (question to Geoff)

    Is it exciting? (question to Peguy)

    Softcore pornography? (question to Victor)

    Anyway, this is an historical document far more valuable than every "memorabilia pictures" posted by Peguy so far.

    It gives a lot more informations about WWII. And history is about informations, not romantic dreams of "bravery", of "glory", of "honor" among soldiers and other unrealistic tales .
    Only the result matters. Only the real facts matter.

    I'm sure many amongst you would have prefered that I'd have rather shown you tanks in action with heavy metal music. But I won't: this is not history. And I'm sure the same audience would find such display of destruction to be "aesthetically pleasing".

    I won't show you the tools, just in case you would be tempted to fantasize on them, I will only show you the result. A whole metropolis and half of its inhabitants have been wiped out, among dozens others. Hundred of thousands human beings died painfully during the process. Some were only kids or children... a lot of them in fact. A good friend of mine was among them (the mother of my closest friend since childhood). She was a seven years old girl, and nonetheless she was raped by several "liberators" and had to live with these traumatizing memories after that. Her father had been killed during the early Russian invasion of Prussia, and her mother had been shot in front of her while she tried to protect her two daughters from the Russian soldiers's sexual appetites. During weeks, she survived in the streets only thanks to the vegetable peels she found in garbage cans.

    Now, if we want to talk about history, we must have the courage to ask why? Why has this happened?

    This is the true discussion we must have about WWII. These are the real questions.

    And if we want to answer them, there's no other way than to search for the roots of Totalitarianism.

    (And compared to this, showing 3 Waffen-SS playing with a little kitten is simply irrelevant. It's not history, it's rather a kind of childish anecdote)
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #104
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    It is a fact of war that there are almost certainly brave acts *and* atrocities commited on both sides.
    This is called the, "Argument from Moral Equivalence".

    It was used extensively by the Communists and their fellow travelers during the Cold War.

    And today it is being used by the Islamists.

    It is a superficially attractive argument for the bien-pensant, but it is simply a propaganda trick.

    And it is an interesting propaganda trick, as it is meant to confound the moral imagination.

    And the hook is that it makes you feel good - perfect bait for the narcissist.

  5. #105
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    This:

    It is a fact of war that there are almost certainly brave acts *and* atrocities commited on both sides.
    ...is not a moral statement or an argument. It is a fact. It does not deal with morality. For example: "In Iraq, US soldiers have commited atrocities" and "In Iraq, US soldiers have commited profound acts of bravery" - *both* of these statements are true, and *neither* of them makes an argument or advances a moral position.

    I have not stated that I believe the Nazis to be morally equivalent to the Allies. The fact that there were German soldiers who commited brave acts does not morally justify their cause. The fact that there were Allied soldiers who commited atrocities doesn't make their cause morally wrong. No sane person, and certainly no one in this thread, is advancing the idea that the Nazis were somehow right in their beliefs.

    NO ONE in this thread is guilty of making moral statements to the tune of "yay Nazis" and people discussing military tactics and specific events don't somehow materialize on the other ends of their discussions as Nazi sympathizers simply for discussing what the Nazis did/felt etc.

    Get a grip.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

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  6. #106
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Read Arendt first, especially about the social implications of totalitarianism: it will show you why, how and when those movements occur.
    With all due respect, Blackmail!, I prefer to look at first-hand accounts and make my judgments based on them, backing those up with second-hand and third-hand accounts. It is not my preference to read a book by any author and simply adopt those ideas as my own.

    Although I'm not saying that is what you are attempting to do, I'm leery of someone who tells me to adopt the ideas of a single book or article because someone claims it has a great deal of the answers. If you believe her ideas match yours and you found these ideas out prior to reading but notice that she expresses herself particularly well, fine, but I don't see the value in reading second-hand and third-hand accounts without taking a close enough look at first-hand documentation.

    In addition, before you bash me with providing Wikipedia articles - because I know you're going to say that - it is simply a summary of first-hand, second-hand, and third-hand accounts, which is more practical on a forum unless you have the ability to get the first-hand documents. My husband has a great deal of first-hand literature from this time since we live in Germany and he studies this aspect of history to a great extent. As a German resident married to a German husband and being fully capable in the language, I realize I have a distinct advantage over someone who may or may not be fluent in German....Nonetheless, I would be careful about citing sources if I were you.

    Perhaps you can provide us with additional first-hand sources that are less biased, or at least provide us biased accounts on both sides so that we can try to make a systematic, logical analysis rather than basing our analysis on emotional reactions to emotionally-charged parts of history. I find these emotional reactions to be less convincing, and honestly, relatively immature. I know you can do better, and I hope that you do. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It's true National Socialism was part of the Romantic Movement.

    In fact National Socialism was deeply influenced by the New Age Movement.

    So there is nothing new about the New Age Movement.

    And it is interesting that the New Age Movement gave birth to MBTI through the National Socialist enthusiast, Carl Jung.

    So it is no surprise to find National Socialism and gun culture celebrated here in images.

    Images by-pass our conscious minds and our conscience and directly speak to our deepest hidden desires.

    And our deepest and unspeakable desires are camouflaged by a persiflage of words.

    And under camouflage, WW II is being fought here all over again in our hearts.

    We defeated the totalitarian National Socialists; we defeated the totalitarian Communists; but the totalitarian impulse springs eternal.

    And this totalitarian impulse can be seen today in Islamism, as well as a nostalgia for the two defeated totalitarians of the recent past.

    Really the question is - do National Socialism, Communism and Islamism disgust you, or do they produce in you a Romantic longing?
    How can you dare to be so reductionistic? Surely you can argue better than that?

    And last I knew the question was not whether or not these movements and ideologies disgust us. The thread was a medium for conducting an interesting discussion of WWII and its origins. If Peguy wishes to post first-hand pictures and accounts, fine by me. He's done it for both sides, and I hardly see how he glorified anything. What he has done is shown us that neither side was comprised purely of wanton murderous maniacs, which is the propaganda of current national socialists and communists; rather, he has emphasized that these soldiers on both sides were human beings, not machines. At least that is what the so-called 'whitewashing' pictures were trying to depict. Perhaps Peguy can jump in here and correct me if I misinterpreted his actions. If I missed something, I'd ask you to explain your point more carefully. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    It doesn't seem to me like Peguy or little Linguist (or anyone else in this thread) is saying "the Nazis were great! we should all try to be more like them!". People are discussing history.

    It is a fact of war that there are almost certainly brave acts *and* atrocities commited on both sides. Discussing one doesn't mean the other one never happened.
    Exactly. Thank you for taking the time to understand the true motivation behind this thread. It is very mature of you, and I look forward to your future contributions.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  7. #107
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    In addition, I don't think we have to rehash the fact that there were atrocities committed on both sides of the war. Such was the way of things at the time, which is no justification, purely an observation. Nowadays, we know better, and I hardly think anyone would try to glorify the atrocities. Honestly, I do not see a connection between speaking about the aspects of national socialism that appealed to the German people and glorifying anyone's atrocities...

    Or have I misunderstood the cause for all this commotion? I expect there was a real reason for this bit of banter - trying to be optimistic that this was not purely a derailing and trolling attempt.

    Personally, I would find it much more enriching if we could stick to the facts and discuss that way. What do you say, guys?
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  8. #108
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    In addition, I don't think we have to rehash the fact that there were atrocities committed on both sides of the war. Such was the way of things at the time, which is no justification, purely an observation. Nowadays, we know better, and I hardly think anyone would try to glorify the atrocities. Honestly, I do not see a connection between speaking about the aspects of national socialism that appealed to the German people and glorifying anyone's atrocities...

    Or have I misunderstood the cause for all this commotion? I expect there was a real reason for this bit of banter - trying to be optimistic that this was not purely a derailing and trolling attempt.

    Personally, I would find it much more enriching if we could stick to the facts and discuss that way. What do you say, guys?
    I think what is making people uncomfortable is the suggestion that both sides were as bad as one another.

    It's an emotionally charged subject, of course, but the german led holocaust and mass murders in invaded countries are not something easily forgotten, and nor should they be.

  9. #109
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    I think what is making people uncomfortable is the suggestion that both sides were as bad as one another.

    It's an emotionally charged subject, of course, but the german led holocaust and mass murders in invaded countries are not something easily forgotten, and nor should they be.
    I'm not claiming that it should be forgotten or suppressed. I'm claiming that we should talk about both sides equally, and not have an argument over which groups set of atrocities were better or worse than another. I'm just not comfortable with putting that kind of value judgment on violence, so I'd rather stick to the original purpose of the thread....Perhaps I made a bad call, but I think fair is fair...
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  10. #110
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    With all due respect, Blackmail!, I prefer to look at first-hand accounts and make my judgments based on them, backing those up with second-hand and third-hand accounts. It is not my preference to read a book by any author and simply adopt those ideas as my own.
    With all due respect, Little Linguist, Hannah Arendt was a first hand witness of what happened in Germany during the 30's.

    Furthermore, I'm not asking you to adopt these ideas, but to begin to study them, because it's only a first step. For instance, one has to study Plato if he wants to discover what Philosophy is all about. It doesn't mean you will become a platonist, but well, you have to begin with the beginning.

    Of course, Arendt is not easy to read, and we are obviously not from the same mental and cultural universe. To fully understand her, you would have to delve into phenomenology, into Heidegger and the real intellectual theories behind Totalitarianism.
    Being familiar with the works of early sociologists (From Weber to Sombart) could also ease your task.



    My husband has a great deal of first-hand literature from this time since we live in Germany and he studies this aspect of history to a great extent. As a German resident married to a German husband and being fully capable in the language, I realize I have a distinct advantage over someone who may or may not be fluent in German....Nonetheless, I would be careful about citing sources if I were you.
    You have no distinct advantage whatsover, believe me. I've studied this aspect of history too, I'm litterally surrounded with historians around me (Remember I work within an University network). Und ich verstehe Deutsch.
    Just in case you would wonder why, well, my best friend since childhood is German, and I have lived with a German girl during 5 years (In Berlin and Munich).


    Perhaps you can provide us with additional first-hand sources that are less biased, or at least provide us biased accounts on both sides so that we can try to make a systematic, logical analysis rather than basing our analysis on emotional reactions to emotionally-charged parts of history. I find these emotional reactions to be less convincing, and honestly, relatively immature. I know you can do better, and I hope that you do. Thanks.
    ENTPs deal with debates rather aggressively, that doesn't mean we are emotionally charged.
    And I have to admit that making fun of people (like you or Peguy) who have a romantic view about WWII is quite entertaining, somehow. That's the classic fight between Idealists and Realists.

    So don't try to reverse roles, that's a puerile defense, that's what kids do.





    What [Peguy] has done is shown us that neither side was comprised purely of wanton murderous maniacs, which is the propaganda of current national socialists and communists; rather, he has emphasized that these soldiers on both sides were human beings, not machines.
    You know, the guards in Auschwitz were human beings too. We all are, so basically your argument is pointless.

    And every human being share a very dark side, that's rather what you do not want to understand.

    I think that most ordinary people can be turned into "wanton murderous maniacs", given the proper training and surroundings. You want to see something positive even within the Waffen-SS, a way to redeem them, I do not. That's the difference between you and me.

    And that's why I do not post the same documents as Peguy. We do not show the same thing, we are not interested at the same things. Glorifying war is not my cup of tea. Romanticism is not my cup of tea. Giving false excuses to anybody is not my cup of tea.

    Again, I only see the results.

    Only the results.

    I have to recognize that the smell of decaying corpses is not very romantic.
    But do you want to talk about WWII, or about your imaginary war?



    Exactly. Thank you for taking the time to understand the true motivation behind this thread. It is very mature of you, and I look forward to your future contributions.
    What is maturity, tell me!
    Is it only an attitude?

    Frankly, purposefully eluding atrocities is not very mature, especially when these atrocities really made the difference between WWII and any other wars in history.

    Again, the estimated number of civilian casualties has been more than twice the military ones. I'm just wondering why you do not want to talk about what happened to the large majority of victims there. It should have been our immediate priority, at least if we really are rational beings.

    But romantic reactionaries are not known to be very rational, pragmatic and impartial. I'm sorry!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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