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  1. #91
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You accuse me of Right wing sympathies.
    Having Right-wing or conservative sympathies is not a crime. I have many conservative friends, by the way.

    But you are different, because for a reason or another, it seems you're more a romantic reactionary than a true conservative.

    And that's not the same thing AT ALL.

    You have idealized things far too much. You're stuck in your own bubble of dreams about a romantic war fought with brave, valiant, galant and virile soldiers.
    A war with no or little atrocities. So little than in fact, we shouldn't even worry to show them.

    But the fact is that WWII is more about large-scale atrocities committed on innocent civilians than about battles fought between rival armies. Let me remind you that the number of civilian casualities is more than twice the military ones.
    And since this war is only about IDEOLOGIES and the consequences of their real-scale implementations, trying not to consider these practical outcomes is like negating the real issues, or "whitewashing" them.


    So...
    Since you know that you have such extreme views, don't tell me you are not aware of the consequences when you expose them. You know you are provoking people, so don't speak to me about maturity, unless you secretly enjoy hypocrisy.


    Well you sir have extreme left-wing sympathies, and you certainly show it off quite a bit here.
    If social-liberalism and environmentalism are extreme-left ideologies, then yes.

    But at least, I've never tried to hide where my sympathies lie, since I'm not ashamed with them.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #92
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    In my opinion, that is slightly more than reductionistic....
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    In my opinion, that is slightly more than reductionistic....
    Read Arendt first, especially about the social implications of totalitarianism: it will show you why, how and when those movements occur.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #94
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    National Socialism was attempting to create a Weltanschauung in which all aspects of everyday life would have a code of ethics. In many ways, it was a very romantic movement - a return to Blut und Boden, honoring your ancestors, and returning to medieval aspects of chivalry, bravery, and honor.
    It's true National Socialism was part of the Romantic Movement.

    In fact National Socialism was deeply influenced by the New Age Movement.

    So there is nothing new about the New Age Movement.

    And it is interesting that the New Age Movement gave birth to MBTI through the National Socialist enthusiast, Carl Jung.

    So it is no surprise to find National Socialism and gun culture celebrated here in images.

    Images by-pass our conscious minds and our conscience and directly speak to our deepest hidden desires.

    And our deepest and unspeakable desires are camouflaged by a persiflage of words.

    And under camouflage, WW II is being fought here all over again in our hearts.

    We defeated the totalitarian National Socialists; we defeated the totalitarian Communists; but the totalitarian impulse springs eternal.

    And this totalitarian impulse can be seen today in Islamism, as well as a nostalgia for the two defeated totalitarians of the recent past.

    Really the question is - do National Socialism, Communism and Islamism disgust you, or do they produce in you a Romantic longing?

  5. #95
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    I have only found the quote I seeked from Heine in German, and I'm too lazy to translate it (even if I could).


    "Das Christentum - und das ist sein schönstes Verdienst - hat jene brutale germanische Kampflust einigermaßen besänftigt, konnte sie jedoch nicht zerstören, und wenn einst der zähmende Talisman, das Kreuz, zerbricht, dann rasselt wieder empor die Wildheit der alten Kämpfer, die unsinnige Berserkerwut, wovon die nordischen Dichter so viel singen und sagen. Die alten steinernen Götter erheben sich dann aus dem verschollenen Schutt, und reiben sich den tausendjährigen Staub aus den Augen, und Thor mit dem Riesenhammer springt endlich empor und zerschlägt die gotischen Dome.

    Lächelt nicht über meinen Rat, über den Rat eines Träumers, der Euch vor Kantianern, Fichteanern und Naturphilosophen warnt. Lächelt nicht über den Phantasten, der im Reiche der Erscheinungen dieselbe Revolution erwartet, die im Gebiete des Geistes stattgefunden. Der Gedanke geht der Tat voraus, wie der Blitz dem Donner. Der deutsche Donner kommt etwas langsam herangerollt; aber kommen wird er, und wenn Ihr es einst krachen hört, wie es noch niemals in der Weltgeschichte gekracht hat, so wißt, der deutsche Donner hat endlich sein Ziel erreicht.

    Bei diesem Geräusche werden die Adler aus der Luft tot niederfallen, und die Löwen in der fernsten Wüste Afrikas werden die Schwänze einkneifen und sich in ihren königlichen Höhlen verkriechen. Es wird ein Stück aufgeführt werden in Deutschland, wogegen die französische Revolution nur wie eine harmlose Idylle erscheinen möchte."


    Heinrich Heine (1840)

    ---

    I have another earlier quote (1835), but this time in English:

    "False revolutionaries who bawled much about love and faith but whose love was nothing but hate of everything foreign, whose faith consisted of nothing but unreason, and whose ignorance knew nothing better than to invent the burning of books. The words "Fatherland," "Germany," "Faith of ancestors," and so forth, will always electrify the vague masses of the people far more certainly than the words "Mankind," "World Citizenship," "Reason of the Sons," and "Truth!". I mean to say by this that the representatives of nationality are far more deeply rooted in the German soil that the representatives of cosmopolitanism, and that the latter will always be beaten by the former unless they swiftly forestall them."

    ---

    So again, the issue wasn't in the way those "romantic values" were perverted, the issue was those values themselves, which were deeply rooted into German identity.

    This tragic outcome was quite predictable, even one century before Nazism arose.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #96
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    It doesn't seem to me like Peguy or little Linguist (or anyone else in this thread) is saying "the Nazis were great! we should all try to be more like them!". People are discussing history.

    It is a fact of war that there are almost certainly brave acts *and* atrocities commited on both sides. Discussing one doesn't mean the other one never happened.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  7. #97
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    And now, Hannah Arendt.

    What's interesting, is that she showed that Totalitarianism can only arise in atomized societies, where the ancient social order has collapsed. With the disintegration of social classes and traditional landmarks, individuals seeks Identity more than adequacy to reality ("common sense"), since this new reality often conflicts with their own self-image.

    This is exactly what happened to post-WWI Germany and Russia.

    Here is a short sum up from Roy Tsao:

    "These "masses" for Arendt are neither the population at large, nor the members of any particular social class. (26) As she uses the term, "masses" are agglomerations of individuals not belonging to any settled class or other stable social interest group. According to her, it was in the troubled decade after the First World War that individuals of this description first shed their usual political apathy and entered the European political scene in huge numbers (311). She argues that what tends to drive these socially isolated individuals toward totalitarian movements is not a desire to satisfy any real or perceived interest of their own, but rather a wish to escape from a human reality that their atomized condition tends to render unbearably senseless for them. It does so by depriving them of any shared perspective from which they might find solidarity or simply take solace in the face of personal calamity or even mundane frustrations--"the never-ending shocks with which real life and real experiences deal to human beings and their expectations" (353). The resulting inability to cope with reality that Arendt attributes to this condition is as much cognitive as psychological. What has been lost is the "measured insight into the interdependence of the arbitrary and the planned, the accidental and the necessary" that is won out of a genuinely shared social experience; she calls this a loss of "common sense" (352). On her view, totalitarian propaganda caters to precisely this incapacity to bear the messy contingencies of the real world by offering in its stead "a lying world of consistency which is more adequate to the needs of the human mind than reality itself, in which, through sheer imagination, uprooted masses can feel at home" (353). Totalitarian propaganda creates this "lying world of consistency" by reducing every fortuitous fact or accidental occurrence to the workings of a mysterious, all-encompassing conspiracy. The lack of evidence for this conspiracy is merely adduced as further proof of the imaginary enemy's success. Willfully flouting common-sense evidence or arguments, the totalitarian leader wins his mass following by acting as if he possesses a kind of ideologically informed "supersense," capable of discerning the consistent pattern of conspiracy joining disparate happenings; he maintains his aura of infallibility through the device of resting all his claims on predictions of future revelations."

    The three phases of Arendt's theory of totalitarianism | Social Research | Find Articles at BNET

    ---

    And now, the original quote from Hannah Arendt:

    "Before they seize power and establish a world according to their doctrines, totalitarian movements conjure up a lying world of consistency which is more adequate to the needs of the human mind than reality itself; in which, through sheer imagination, uprooted masses can feel at home and are spared the never-ending shocks which real life and real experiences deal to human beings and their expectations. The force possessed by totalitarian propaganda—before the movements have the power to drop iron curtains to prevent anyone’s disturbing, by the slightest reality, the gruesome quiet of an entirely imaginary world -- lies in its ability to shut the masses off from the real world."

    Thus, somehow, even if it tried to use some "romantic" or reactionary elements from the past, Nazism could only arise in a modern industrial context, as a post-nationalist ideology.

    Everywhere and everytime you see "values" placed higher than identity (even if the two connects with each other), you have the roots of totalitarianism.
    There is nothing "noble, heroic or chivalrous" with "values" when they conflict reality or "common sense". In fact, this longing is extremely dangerous, especially because it's very seductive.

    And about Identity:

    "If the question was ‘Who am I?’, then conventional bourgeois ‘society insisted, "You are what you appear to be."" But the new fascist activism replied, ‘You are what you have done’. There were no moral constraints to what you may do. ‘The point was to do something, heroic or criminal, which was unpredictable and undetermined by anybody else’"

    And as Victor pointed, you can see that those lines, even if they were written to describe Nazism and Stalinism, fit perfectly with modern Islamism too: the societal context is quite similar, since the traditional nationalist movements (like Nasserism and Baath) have also failed there, one generation ago.

    Similar causes, similar consequences.

    Never underestimate questions about Identity!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #98
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    People are discussing history.
    No they are not. They are eluding history, they present misconstructed romantic values instead of the careful examination of facts, of all the facts.

    Romanticizing the Waffen-SS is not discussing History.

    Showing the death toll and trying to understand why and where such atrocities happened is discussing history.

    But apparently, that's not what they want to hear.

    It is a fact of war that there are almost certainly brave acts *and* atrocities commited on both sides. Discussing one doesn't mean the other one never happened.
    Ignorance and relativism.

    Did every armies or belligerant states commit genocides?

    No.

    Why?

    (Each case is specific and should be put into political and cultural contexts, not vague or sordid generalizations)
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #99
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Let's try and avoid turning this thread into WW3 (and in particular let's not post distasteful graphic holocaust pictures, should anyone be tempted to up the ante).

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Let's try and avoid turning this thread into WW3 (and in particular let's not post distasteful graphic holocaust pictures, should anyone be tempted to up the ante).
    Should we ban pictures of Hiroshima too? Or of the Nanjing massacre?

    Should we post only "artistic" pictures of the war?

    You know that the ugly pictures are as real as the beautiful ones. In fact, they're even truer, even if they are less "acceptable" for our romantic friends.

    Truth is not a matter of morality nor of beauty.

    So, tell me, where is the limit when you begin to justify censorship?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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