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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    I hate this idea, truly, probably the worst propaganda to ever plague society.



    Good, it is fairly easy to understand that it is better for someone making $1 million a year to pay $500,000 in taxes, thus ending up with $500,000 left, rather than someone making $50,000 and endup up with $40,000 after taxes. (I don't know if these are realistic estimates but the concept is extremely simple, it's about fairness)



    Bullshit. This is only if the fat-cats decide to keep their outrageous wages. The big business owners spew this bullshit idea around to justify their gluttony.

    Unless you are in the top 1% of income there is no reason why you should support such ideas at all. These ideas are contrary to what anyone in the bottom 99% need, you're basically punching yourself in the face for supporting this crap.
    You're so ideologically invested in your many misguided opinions that I wont bother going back and forth with you. Fine, you believe the rich should give up all their wealth. If you were in that position I know you would not support that. May God put me in a god damn blender if I am wrong about that. What's a crime is that the government burdens the wealthy class to pay for its own rampant spending, to give their money to people who "deserve it more". As long as you are on the receiving end, I'm sure you don't give a flying crap. That's the problem with all you people who have this mentality (eugenicists included). As long as you're not stuck on the giving end you don't give a shit. Maybe if we keep people like you from reproducing we'll solve our population AND money problems .

    As for businesses, I'm quite sure you're never run a business in your life. Everybody who espouses these crack pipe ideas has never owned or operated a business, because if they did, they would understand something as basic as "The more it costs me, the more it costs you." I've owned my own small business, and I'll tell you, it's not a god damn dream. It hold true on the small scale and on the large scale. Does that mean businesses and top executives don't sometimes get greedy? No, of course not! But it doesn't mean everybody who's rich is a greedy bastard like the many lower class people who have their hands out constantly waiting to receive other peoples' money.

  2. #32
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I've owned my own small business, and I'll tell you, it's not a god damn dream.
    Although I agree with most of what you had to say here, in principle, very very few business owners will be affected by any tax increases that are being talked about right now.

    That and most businesses aren't hurt by taxes so long as they are even. It's economically harmful (dead weight), but doesn't really influence businesses that much... it simply changes the profit margin, which can drive small business owners to employee jobs. Not a good thing, but their taxes tend to be smaller than employees anyway, so it's not as huge of an impact.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Fine, you believe the rich should give up all their wealth. If you were in that position I know you would not support that. May God put me in a god damn blender if I am wrong about that.
    I'm a kid, I live with my parents. My family is in the top 1% of income. My parents don't mind paying more taxes.

    Get that blender ready.

    What's a crime is that the government burdens the wealthy class to pay for its own rampant spending, to give their money to people who "deserve it more".
    Life, Liberty, Property, and Security are what the Government must provide according to Hobbes.

    Which class is having trouble with these?

    The further one goes down from the top of wealth, the less of these rights are available.

    Remember, these are supposed to be the indispensable rights of man provided by the government...

    As long as you are on the receiving end, I'm sure you don't give a flying crap. That's the problem with all you people who have this mentality (eugenicists included). As long as you're not stuck on the giving end you don't give a shit. Maybe if we keep people like you from reproducing we'll solve our population AND money problems .
    I am on the receiving end, and I still think that it is wrong for the sake of wanting a better world for all people. I am highly privileged in my current financial situation, but my plan for the future will make me a whole lot less money at the expense of doing something that I love.

    As for businesses, I'm quite sure you're never run a business in your life. Everybody who espouses these crack pipe ideas has never owned or operated a business, because if they did, they would understand something as basic as "The more it costs me, the more it costs you." I've owned my own small business, and I'll tell you, it's not a god damn dream. It hold true on the small scale and on the large scale. Does that mean businesses and top executives don't sometimes get greedy? No, of course not! But it doesn't mean everybody who's rich is a greedy bastard like the many lower class people who have their hands out constantly waiting to receive other peoples' money.
    No, I have not run a business, and will probably never run one because that is not the plan I have for my future.

    There is a big difference between small businesses and large businesses. Once a business gets large it does everything in its power to shut down smaller businesses in the same market. Then it bribes government for benefits. The amount of taxes a small business pays is relatively large compared to that of a large business. Doesn't seem fair to me. Social Darwinism is a hoax.

    Poor people can't just "pull themselves up by their bootstraps." These people are working multiple jobs and long hours just to have enough money to pay for food and the roof above their heads. No matter how hard they try to climb up the ladder they won't, because others are already at the top of that ladder and have broken the rungs to stop them from climbing...

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    Poor people can't just "pull themselves up by their bootstraps." These people are working multiple jobs and long hours just to have enough money to pay for food and the roof above their heads. No matter how hard they try to climb up the ladder they won't, because others are already at the top of that ladder and have broken the rungs to stop them from climbing...
    I know I said I wasn't going to reply again, but ...

    I hope we ALL realize that this is why we should not be propping up big businesses who are due to fail. For the same things you hate, Didums, the government is ENCOURAGING. They are allowing businesses who should fail stay alive and continue their bad practices. The government and businesses are in bed with each other, and in the end it's the little guy that loses. If they would let things fail naturally, then guess what Didums; all those people who were NOT able to rise up because they were being suppressed by the "big guys" would have a chance to to achieve success because of the vacuum created. That is how innovation functions in capitalism. If you can offer something to the table that we all want and need, then you will rise in the ladder and take the place of those who fell off the top. If we don't let anyone fall off the ladder, then no, nobody will be able to climb up themselves. SOCIALISM, in this way, only shatters your dream of people being able to lift themselves up. I HOPE I have made this clear enough.

    As for the people who can't find a way up through their own efforts, it's nearly impossible to say that it is due to anything but their own choices in life. The country allows for anyone of any background to make enough to provide for their needs, provided they make the right choices.

  5. #35
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    It should be noted that much of the tax cuts in the stimulus bill are for small businesses.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I know I said I wasn't going to reply again, but ...

    ... I HOPE I have made this clear enough.
    By all means I would support letting the house that is on fire just burn to the ground instead of frantically trying to put out the fire... problem is that we have no materials to re-build the house.

    If we let everything crumble, millions of people will end up wandering the streets with no jobs, stealing food and resources in every way possible. This is what Marx would have hoped for, because it would prompt a violent proletariate revolution. Capitalism naturally disintegrates (the fire burns down the house without intervention). I do not support the idea of a violent revolution, and in that sense I am not a true Socialist according to Marx, he would have despised me for it.

    As for the people who can't find a way up through their own efforts, it's nearly impossible to say that it is due to anything but their own choices in life. The country allows for anyone of any background to make enough to provide for their needs, provided they make the right choices.
    Ahh, the American Dream.. seems fine and dandy, but you've gotta remember, it's a Dream, it isn't real.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post

    Ahh, the American Dream.. seems fine and dandy, but you've gotta remember, it's a Dream, it isn't real.
    And you can blame that on the leaders with that same mentality that anything is to big to fail. If I remember marx correctly, capitalism fails because it DEGRADES into socialism, followed by communism. Then again, I never read Marx. Capitalism naturally undergoes boom and bust cycles, and its when we attempt to socialize the losses that we stray from capitalism and reduce our ability to recover on the downturns.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    And you can blame that on the leaders with that same mentality that anything is to big to fail.
    Sure, its possible to rise up, with luck, a whole lot of luck, plenty of people have determination, little have luck.

    If I remember marx correctly, capitalism fails because it DEGRADES into socialism, followed by communism. Then again, I never read Marx. Capitalism naturally undergoes boom and bust cycles, and its when we attempt to socialize the losses that we stray from capitalism and reduce our ability to recover on the downturns.
    Marx believes society transforms as follows:

    1. Tribal - essentially a commune to begin with. So, why would there be any change from this state at all if it is essentially communism? The two main reasons are: technology is primitive and advances will shift the balance of power, and this form of communism is on a very small-scale, Marxian communism is international.
    2. Slave-master - begins when strong tribes begin to conquer weak tribes over territory or other disputes.
    3. Feudalism - begins when slave-master (strong-weak) role gains a genetic component. Arisocracy and serfdom is the established social order. Social order is characterized by the dominance of the Aristocratic economic class, everything is geared towards benefiting the Aristocracy.
    4. Capitalism - begins with the triumph of a middle class (bourgeoisie) over the aristocracy after suffering abuse from the aristocracy, the middle class develops from the development of cities. Capitalism is a large phase, starting with Merchantilism and ending with Imperialism. Social order is characterized by the dominance of the Bourgeoisie, everything is geared towards benefiting the Bourgeoisie (business people).
    5. Socialism - begins when the proletariate (working class) triumph over the bourgeoisie after suffering abuse from the bourgeoisie. Social order is characterized by the dominance of the proletariate, everything is geared towards benefiting the proletariate.
    6. Communism - classless society emerges on an international scale, national borders are disintegrated. Everything is geared towards benefiting Everyone.

    ^

    This is called Dialectical Materialism.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    Sure, its possible to rise up, with luck, a whole lot of luck, plenty of people have determination, little have luck.



    Marx believes society transforms as follows:

    1. Tribal - essentially a commune to begin with. So, why would there be any change from this state at all if it is essentially communism? The two main reasons are: technology is primitive and advances will shift the balance of power, and this form of communism is on a very small-scale, Marxian communism is international.
    2. Slave-master - begins when strong tribes begin to conquer weak tribes over territory or other disputes.
    3. Feudalism - begins when slave-master (strong-weak) role gains a genetic component. Arisocracy and serfdom is the established social order.
    4. Capitalism - begins with the triumph of a middle class (bourgeoisie) over the aristocracy, the middle class develops from the development of cities. Capitalism is a large phase, starting with Merchantilism and ending with Imperialism.
    5. Socialism - begins when the proletariate triumph over the bourgeoisie after suffering abuse from the bourgeoisie.
    6. Communism - classless society emerges on an international scale.
    The difference is in whether or not we see Russia as being the pinnacle of human society or the hole in the toilet at the end of a downward spiral into communism. If we are divided at that point, then there is no bridge.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    The difference is in whether or not we see Russia as being the pinnacle of human society or the hole in the toilet at the end of a downward spiral into communism. If we are divided at that point, then there is no bridge.
    Russia did not complete the Capitalist phase and hence did not build up the revenue necessary for Socialism to succeed. Russian "communism" is not what the socialist philosophers had in mind.

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