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  1. #51
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I'm not arguing what he did in the 90's, I'm saying these guys are creating uncertainty in the markets and driving them down when they talk. Stay on point; I notice you tend to go on tangents.
    Markets want uncertainly to be taken care of by securing the housing and bank industry as quickly as possible. Markets have already declared some banks basically insolvent. If spending can bring stability to the market, that's a good thing. Market psyche plays into all of this as well.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Markets want uncertainly to be taken care of by securing the housing and bank industry as quickly as possible. Markets have already declared some banks basically insolvent. If spending can bring stability to the market, that's a good thing. Market psyche plays into all of this as well.
    Yes, it's very much psychological. However, the promises for spending that they have already made have not helped the markets at all, they've only gone down. If they wanted the banks to be nationalized, they would've gone up upon hearing about it instead of tanking. that is why Obama HAD TO come back and refute such claims because they realized the public would be very much against a total nationalization.

    *I should also make it clear that the markets behaved the same way before Obama took office, mostly because the economic crisis policies have not changed.*

  3. #53
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Yes, it's very much psychological. However, the promises for spending that they have already made have not helped the markets at all, they've only gone down. If they wanted the banks to be nationalized, they would've gone up upon hearing about it instead of tanking. that is why Obama HAD TO come back and refute such claims because they realized the public would be very much against a total nationalization.
    Just on the announcement that the government might partly institutionalize banks like Citigroup, markets in Asia went up. If the Obama admin can do a competent job on all of this, the recession could be shortened.

    TOPWRAP 2-Obama plan clears first hurdle, Asian markets cheer - Forbes.com

  4. #54
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What data do you have that leads you to the conclusion that Franklin would be a "modern liberal"?
    Ajblaise, I'm sure you just overlooked this question. You certainly weren't dodging it, so I've quoted it for you.

    Edit: Why not just address the content of those quotes rather than making statements about the messengers?
    Last edited by Lateralus; 02-25-2009 at 10:49 AM.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #55
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What data do you have that leads you to the conclusion that Franklin would be a "modern liberal"?
    Hehe, Mr. Warhawk he was. So no, not a modern liberal in that sense.

    Socially, possibly. Fiscally, maybe. Security, hell no.

  6. #56
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Ajblaise, I'm sure you just overlooked this question. You certainly weren't dodging it, so I've quoted it for you.

    Edit: Why not just address the content of those quotes rather than making statements about the messengers?
    I'm sure most of his policy stances would have changed were he alive now. He changed his opinion on probably the largest freedom issue of his time, slavery, when he was older, having used to buy and sell slaves himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maabus1999 View Post
    Hehe, Mr. Warhawk he was. So no, not a modern liberal in that sense.

    Socially, possibly. Fiscally, maybe. Security, hell no.
    Liberal Democrats, while not warhawks, have started or were involved in most of the wars the US has been for a while.

    But the modern/classical liberalism split is mostly about economics and social policy, though.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I'm sure most of his policy stances would have changed were he alive now. He changed his opinion on probably the largest freedom issue of his time, slavery, when he was older, having used to buy and sell slaves himself.
    So because he changed his mind on at least one issue in his life, he would have automatically held the same political philosophy as you. Got it.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #58
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So because he changed his mind on at least one issue in his life, he would have automatically held the same political philosophy as you. Got it.
    More complex than that, he probably wouldn't have the same politics as me on all issues, though would he be close to today's conservative Republican on most policies? Probably not.

  9. #59
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    Today, they announced they were going to buy up 36% of Citibank. It is now nearly nationalized by the DEFINITION of nationalization (which I believe says 40% ownership by government is nationalization). The dow damn near crossed into the freaking 6,000 range, closing at 7,062. S&P took a sharp dive. Yikes. However, it could also be due in part to the news about our massive 7 year treasury sell off, as well as GE announcing their cuts in dividends at the end of the trading period.

  10. #60
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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