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  1. #71
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangler View Post
    Libertarianism is based almost exclusively off of the ideals of the Free Market, Perfect Competition, and Rational Individuals. All are theoretical economics concepts that don't naturally occur and ignore most social justice issues.
    Wow, you are completely talking out of your ass. Where did you EVER read that libertarianism is based on perfect competition and perfectly rational individuals? You need to read a little bit more about this, my man.


    The assertion that markets are an ineffective way to deal with public goods, like national defense, is true, but not the issue. In my previous comments I'm of course referring to capital markets. Where lately, the volatility and uncertainty would support a conclusion that they are less than efficient. Libertarianism asserts we should base as much of our society as possible on free markets because they are the most efficient at distributing our scarce resources. If that's true, why have our capital markets bubbled, collapsed, bubbled, and collapsed again? For the past decade investor's pie-in-the-sky asset valuations have failed to allocate resources effectively. I support a balanced approach to society. Markets need regulation as much as government needs accountability. There are of course issues of government spending that I don't agree with, but that alone isn't an excuse to become a libertarian. I have to say I admire your idealism, and the enthusiasm with which you promote it.
    There are plenty of reasons why capital markets boom and bust. Part of it is the natural business cycle. Part of it is greed/shortsightedness. However, a good portion of this particular issue stems from government propagation and rewarding of poor business practice. I am sorry, but I really think that you need to familiarize yourself with actual libertarian theory and writings, not some sort of oversimplification people bandy about online.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #72
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangler View Post
    ...and ignore most social justice issues.
    Social justice is fundamentally a contradiction in terms. When people use this term in earnest, what they mean is equal results (as opposed to equal opportunity).

    This is the mindset that says, for example, "Banks aren't writing as many mortgages for people of color as they are for white people; that is an injustice." Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. You don't really know until you've looked at the breakdown of qualified applicants by race.

    But acting on the assumption generates good press and self-congratulatory warm fuzzies all around. Never mind that the resulting legislation will lead to a big round of foreclosures ten years hence, and possibly a wholesale crash in the economy some months after that. You've done your part for "social justice," and that's the important thing, right?

    I'll tell you what the important things are: Ethics. Education. Intelligence. Drive. Self-respect (which is somehow the opposite of self-esteem). These are the things that prevent individuals from being worthless. With them, any man is my brother; without them, every man is my parasite.

    Race and class are non-issues in this debate. They're the red herrings that the social-justice crowd uses to wedge their way into policy discussions.

  3. #73
    Senior Member Rangler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Wow, you are completely talking out of your ass. Where did you EVER read that libertarianism is based on perfect competition and perfectly rational individuals? You need to read a little bit more about this, my man.
    You're right! There is no link between libertarianism and the concept of free markets...

    I think I'll let the readers decide this one.

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  4. #74
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangler View Post
    You're right! There is no link between libertarianism and the concept of free markets...

    I think I'll let the readers decide this one.

    Platform | Libertarian Party
    If you think the Libertarian Party consists of perfectly rational individuals, well... wanna buy a bridge?

  5. #75
    Senior Member Rangler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Social justice is fundamentally a contradiction in terms. When people use this term in earnest, what they mean is equal results (as opposed to equal opportunity).
    I am aware of the distinction, and wholeheartedly agree that social justice needs to focus around equal opportunity rather than equal results. My thoughts around this issue are mainly that in some cases past social abuses have lead to situations where equal opportunity doesn't exist and won't naturally correct itself. An example would be pay legislation that guaranteed women equal pay for doing the exact same job as a man.
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  6. #76
    Senior Member Rangler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    If you think the Libertarian Party consists of perfectly rational individuals, well... wanna buy a bridge?
    Haha. Well that's the classic problem with arguing about libertarianism. It isn't exactly consistent between libertarians.
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  7. #77
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangler View Post
    An example would be pay legislation that guaranteed women equal pay for doing the exact same job as a man.
    Great example. :rolleyes2:

  8. #78
    Senior Member Rangler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Great example. :rolleyes2:
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  9. #79
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangler View Post
    It's not the principle I'm opposed to, though I think by now that the business world realizes that women are every bit as capable as men in the workplace, and pay for performance rather than gender.

    The problem is the execution and enforcement of the law. How can it be enforced without mandating pay scales, or preventing an employer from rewarding good performance, or providing incentives to actually commit gender discrimination where the employer wouldn't have before? I don't see how, myself.

    On the other hand, our current system broadly mandates that there be no gender discrimination in the workplace, allowing women and men to bring suit against their employers, and to let the court decide if discrimination actually exists.

    Your proposed law would add a whole new layer of regulatory complexity on human resources. The accountants and lawyers would love you for it. Would it really provide genuine justice for anyone? Possibly. Would the amount of good it did be worth the cost in jobs and productivity? I have grave doubts.

  10. #80
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangler View Post
    You're right! There is no link between libertarianism and the concept of free markets...

    I think I'll let the readers decide this one.

    Platform | Libertarian Party

    HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Libertarian PARTY? Sweet Jesus.


    Also, by the way, free markets do not equate with perfect competition. I hope that is abundantly clear.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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