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View Poll Results: What do you think of exercising 'eye for an eye' retribution?

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  • 'Eye for an eye' is as ancient as it is just.

    19 42.22%
  • I'm with Gandhi on this; 'an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind!"

    20 44.44%
  • Well... <insert commentary via post>

    6 13.33%
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  1. #131
    WTF is this dude saying? A Schnitzel's Avatar
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    I love these headlines!

    Another quality one I saw the other day:
    Hope Latest Victim of the Economy
    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    sheesh humans! for realz

  2. #132
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    I can name examples where it succeeded. Obviously it's not an easy process, but it's happened again and again throughout time. One culture dominates another. From a moral relativist standpoint it's expected to happen.

    The general idea of being against violence is to stop it happening, instead of letting it happen. Yes, I'm sure nothing can be done to stop it now, though I'm also sure people are trying to stop her by reaching out to let her know they see her actions as immoral for whatever reasons. Another purpose in calling her a "barbarian" is to show other people their own disapproval of her actions, so they might be persuaded not to follow her example.
    :\ I'm growing tired. I understand your viewpoint. To you, violence is wrong in all forms, and fighting fire with fire seems to only work with fire. A few terrible mishaps in history does not reflect on the fact that non-violence demonstrations have worked and will continue to work when applied. This woman should hold herself to a higher standard than that of her attacker.

    I am not a violent person by any sense of the word.. but I am saying that I've seen the culture, and I cannot bring my heart to say she's 100% wrong just because she isn't holding herself up to that higher standard than what's legally allowed. Non-violence supporters are just going to have to settle for what they can get, and continue to preach and hope.. I'm not going to be casting stones and insults on different cultures because I don't like the way a situation is panning out. I will just continue to insist that higher standards help society, and thus yourself in the end.

    You aren't going to convince me that she's wrong and make myself blind to the entire situation and the way things are over there. I'll be stubborn in this way. I respect your viewpoints, but I have to disagree with the overall decision.
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  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    The 300 number is vastly under-reported and part of it is the stigma that is associated with such acid attacks, particularly with females. That comes under the umbrella of "blame the victim". On the other hand, crude justice has its benefits in that the victim is handed back "control", therefore they are no longer the "victim".

    I am not suggesting that it replace all other measures in preventing attacks on women. There are many other ways, including those that you listed. But a strong stand is needed in the fight for gender equality, and if the legal system gives women control of their fates through "an eye for an eye", I will support it. I donate to Equality Now regularly, which supports women victims of violence globally. They campaign for political and human rights for women through various channels, and are attempting to hand economic and political control back to women through education.

    What pisses me off is the attitude of Western moral superiority, I guess. "She shouldn't do it because it's inhumane!" - well, women aren't treated like humans at all in such circumstances. Handing them back their dignity through control and being able to decide punishment is the first step.

    I'm not pretending to be better than I am. In an ideal world, the guy repents and spreads the word about how women are actually people and not cattle; people cry and are convinced that egalitarianism is great, hooray for equality. In this world, women are attacked because they are women, and because existing legal systems don't provide an avenue for them to pursue justice (I should know, my home country does not have domestic violence laws against abusing wives). If there is one instance where the victim can not feel impotent and stripped of her dignity, I cheer and will call for it to happen again.
    Okay well aside from my point that it won't make any difference to the attack rate, giving the victim back control can be done through better policing and all the things I mentioned before.

    I'll try a different angle though:-

    The truth behind this is that people don't respond well to violent threats over the long term. Sure if you put a gun to someone's head they'll likely obey (irrational fear), but only threatening to do so (rational fear) will make them resentful and try to find a way around it. Imagine someone threatening to attack you if you don't do as they say, if they are infront of you it is intimidating, if they are nowhere to be seen, it is not nearly as strong.

    Most people show this kind of behaviour. Drug barons threaten their dealers with death, but they still disobey given the chance. Kids get threatened with beatings, but they still jump at the chance to disobey the beater. In this case the chance to disobey is all the time as long as there is acid around. Dealing with this desire to hurt and the methods that these people have is the only way to stop it effectively. Trying to override it with rational fear will not work. It may work with minor decisions, but in the case of commiting assault you'll already be in a mindset that'll ignore rational fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    :\ I'm growing tired. I understand your viewpoint. To you, violence is wrong in all forms, and fighting fire with fire seems to only work with fire. A few terrible mishaps in history does not reflect on the fact that non-violence demonstrations have worked and will continue to work when applied. This woman should hold herself to a higher standard than that of her attacker.

    I am not a violent person by any sense of the word.. but I am saying that I've seen the culture, and I cannot bring my heart to say she's 100% wrong just because she isn't holding herself up to that higher standard than what's legally allowed. Non-violence supporters are just going to have to settle for what they can get, and continue to preach and hope.. I'm not going to be casting stones and insults on different cultures because I don't like the way a situation is panning out. I will just continue to insist that higher standards help society, and thus yourself in the end.

    You aren't going to convince me that she's wrong and make myself blind to the entire situation and the way things are over there. I'll be stubborn in this way. I respect your viewpoints, but I have to disagree with the overall decision.
    Fair enough. I agree that she isn't 100% wrong. I understand her motivations and they are not nearly as bad as the man's likely motivations. If she honestly thinks her choice will prevent crime, then that lowers her, err, percentage of wrongness even more. I would say her actions are expected, and I would be pleasantly surprised if she decided not to go through with this, and as pained as always at the human race if she follows through.

  4. #134
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhallahereicome View Post
    I must admit that my first reaction on reading this article was to viscerally long for the man to be blinded, in the most painful way possible. However, my own cruel streak is probably very similar to the part of that man that led him to throw acid at the woman in the first place; like his, it needs to be suppressed and sublimated and replaced with empathy and reason.
    Well, I had no visceral reaction one way or the other. But the part about eradicating that element of cruelty from humanity is interesting to me. It evinces a sense of ownership over this woman to suppose that we should compromise her ability to mete out to the aggressor whatever punishment is legally available to her in the name of a better humanity.
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  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I've seen the culture, and I cannot bring my heart to say she's 100% wrong just because she isn't holding herself up to that higher standard than what's legally allowed.
    I agree.

    Frankly, going to the media was silly. Instead of announcing her plans, she should've just had them carried out on the stealth.

    How many would truly not be vengeful, after being blinded by acid?

  6. #136
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    I agree.

    Frankly, going to the media was silly. Instead of announcing her plans, she should've just had them carried out on the stealth.

    How many would truly not be vengeful, after being blinded by acid?
    Yes. I think citizens taking justice into their own hands is sometimes just. Just don't draw attention to yourself, because we want to look the other way while you do what you gotta do.

  7. #137
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    [QUOTE=Valhallahereicome;553291]
    There's a reason that we don't allow victims to decide punishments in the U.S. Victims have no objectivity.
    The reason is to prevent a disproportionate response from the victim. Society rationally decides what punishment is fitting. In Iran, they decided "an eye for an eye" was appropriate.

    In my opinion, cruelty is something we need to stamp out in our society and it has no place in any of our government systems
    There is no way to oppose violence except through violence. A society which refuse to use violence will live and die at the whim of any opponent who does not share their pacifism. Survival of the fittest will weed this trait out over time.

    When we deny the humanity of even one person, it puts everyone else at risk.
    No it doesn't. Rational selectivity will ensure that the innocent are never at risk. If you give a man a gun to protect his family from predators in the jungle, it does not follow that his family is now at greater risk.

    Where does "an eye for an eye" end?
    When balance is restored. That's the concept of justice.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Take the situation to the extreme, if you had the option to give everyone eternal bliss or selectively do so, which would you do? People claiming empathy for the attacker are the people who would give everyone possible bliss, regardless of actions
    An why would such an irrational value system considered morally superior? It would severely weaken the fabric of society. No one would respect the law if it rewarded bad behavior. Lawlessness would prevail. The society would die.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    An why would such an irrational value system considered morally superior? It would severely weaken the fabric of society. No one would respect the law if it rewarded bad behavior. Lawlessness would prevail. The society would die.
    That quote of me is out of context, so doesn't represent what I said.

    Out of context: It could be seen as morally superior for any number of reasons (i.e. personal opinion). I don't know exactly why some people have such values.

    Any value system is irrational though. Unless you use the term rational to mean able to make decisions, in which case all value systems are rational.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    That quote of me is out of context, so doesn't represent what I said.
    My mistake. I though you advocated such a position. I am interested in how someone would defend a value like that, without claiming that God or "the universe" will give them a bigger reward them in the end.

    Any value system is irrational though. Unless you use the term rational to mean able to make decisions, in which case all value systems are rational.
    To me, rational simply refers to a consistency of beliefs.

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