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View Poll Results: What do you think of exercising 'eye for an eye' retribution?

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  • 'Eye for an eye' is as ancient as it is just.

    19 42.22%
  • I'm with Gandhi on this; 'an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind!"

    20 44.44%
  • Well... <insert commentary via post>

    6 13.33%
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  1. #121
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    No matter how civilized we may think we are, we will always forget the fact that we are still animals!
    Nice to see that you reduced people who disagree with you to "animals" as opposed to being "civilised".

  2. #122
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I would think the answer to this would be obvious.
    I'm curious, Lateralus. Would you say more?
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    You're arguing this in terms of concepts and principles that have no application to reality.

    There is no equality in the middle East w.r.t. gender and sex. Women are forever put down and victimised in this manner, and are not accorded respect in any way.

    The acid-blinding is a manifestation of this inequality, and if the justice system is (surprisingly) to serve the female victim, I support an eye for an eye. This (as has been said before) empowers the victim because it accords her rights, i.e. the right to walk down the street and not have acid thrown in her face because she turned down a psycho.

    I am not going to accord the same rights to the guy who did it. He made his decision, and has to live with it under the laws of the land.

    IMHO the "deterrent" thing doesn't work in the US because of due process. People get to appeal and believe that they can get away with things through legal loopholes and pretend to be rehabilitated. Some are rehabilitated, of course. But I think the expectation of an immediate "eye for an eye" treatment (instead of fines, appeals and jailing/execution with rights) will be more effective. Also, if the law takes care of things, this would discourage vigilantism and foster a faith in karmic justice.

    That said, I grew up in Asia and perhaps our beliefs are "barbaric" to Westerners. I'm just saying - if that happened to my friend, sister, or my mother, I'd be all for it if it was what she wanted. Even if she believed that it wasn't about retribution.
    I doubt this will have any preventative effect. Acid attacks like this happen around 300 times a year, the people who commit them are essentially 'unstable'. They are a fringe group highly unlikely to consider the consequences of their actions. If anything will help prevent this sort of thing (aside from rehabilitation and other social policies) it's not allowing the public to get their hands on highly corrosive substances.

    They are in fact trying to create policies like this and they are having a significant impact (Acid Survivors Foundation (ASF)).

    The people who commit these acts likely do it out of intense emotion or with serious planning (thinking they can get away with it). In both cases they won't give much thought to the legal consequences (Much like capital punishment fails to prevent crime because of these same reasons). You even said yourself these people are psychotic.

    These attacks take the form of acid because of cultural impacts, but are much the same nature as rape and stoning attacks on women (note that 30% of acid attack victims are male). The rates for those attacks have no significant correlation to the legal penalty for commiting them (NationMaster - Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country). Same with other extreme crimes like murder (NationMaster - Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country), assault etc (NationMaster - Assaults (per capita) (most recent) by country). I'm not entirely sure about theft in Saudi Arabia, but I know it's quite high despite severing thieve's hands and beating them in public.

    Hopefully, I don't need to list successful ways in which women can be supported and gain equal rights in such countries. None of them involve violence.

  4. #124
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhallahereicome View Post
    Though I don't want to see her feelings pushed aside, what she's asking puts too much of a strain on the way the legal system needs to work.
    Take note that the legal system clearly defines and outlines her rights for this. She's not putting a strain on anything, that's a bias you have from a different culture. One that I share, but bias nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    I don't think I demand the punishment if I wasn't prepared to do by my own hand so to speak, or in this case be there in the room, while they did it.
    Agreed entirely. If I were to put someone to death, I would be willing to do this with my own two hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valhallahereicome View Post
    No one should be able to buy their way out of trouble. But adequate punishment doesn't have to take the form of "eye for an eye"; again, I really see this type of "justice" as spawning more problems than it solves.
    The streets you talked about in this post. The streets of that country are entirely different. You're looking at a legal system where blood money is offered. It'd be like someone being able to buy themselves out of the death penalty, or from a life sentence in jail.

    Police are not nearly as reliable in these parts of the world as they are here.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    That said, I grew up in Asia and perhaps our beliefs are "barbaric" to Westerners. I'm just saying - if that happened to my friend, sister, or my mother, I'd be all for it if it was what she wanted. Even if she believed that it wasn't about retribution.
    I think this is my point entirely. People are trying to thrust their beliefs onto a situation where their beliefs are not welcomed. Preach, but do not go on some crusade because you believe X and someone else believes Y and that's just got to be wrong. Certainly do not be insulting other people in the process of it all.

    What is barbaric to one culture is the norm for the next.
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I think this is my point entirely. People are trying to thrust their beliefs onto a situation where their beliefs are not welcomed. Preach, but do not go on some crusade because you believe X and someone else believes Y and that's just got to be wrong. Certainly do not be insulting other people in the process of it all.

    What is barbaric to one culture is the norm for the next.
    Exactly, thrusting your beliefs on others who don't welcome it is barbaric in one culture and the norm for the next.

    Moral relativism supports no moral system. No value judgements. Using it to support respect for other's cultures does not work, since respecting other people's culture is moral/value judgement made by our own culture.

    It is true that other's beliefs are not welcomed there, but that's generally not seen as a problem by people with certain cultures behind them.

  6. #126
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post



    I think this is my point entirely. People are trying to thrust their beliefs onto a situation where their beliefs are not welcomed. Preach, but do not go on some crusade because you believe X and someone else believes Y and that's just got to be wrong. Certainly do not be insulting other people in the process of it all.

    What is barbaric to one culture is the norm for the next.
    Off topic, I disagree, I don't feel I need to keep quiet about what I see as barbaric and unjust in other cultures. Somethings are just undoubtably wrong, and I will actively do what I can to try in anyway I can to make changes. (infp crusader at the ready lol)

    It's only through some kind of crusade that slavery is illegal in places where it was once the norm (not talking about the illegal slave market), it's only through mini crusades that countries where the marriage age limit was so low have had to move with the times and upgrade them. Not everyone is onboard yet, but I remain optimistic that in time even places like afghanistan will stop marrying off 9yr old girls.

    We can sit down and keep quiet, and say "it's their culture, let's respect that", but then what hope for the world will there ever be with that kind of apathy?

    Anyway I grew up believing that an eye for an eye is fair, and tbh I still believe that.

    Even if I was the one about to be blinded in revenge, I would know it was my own god damn fault.
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  7. #127
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Exactly, thrusting your beliefs on others who don't welcome it is barbaric in one culture and the norm for the next.

    Moral relativism supports no moral system. No value judgements. Using it to support respect for other's cultures does not work, since respecting other people's culture is moral/value judgement made by our own culture.
    This is what you say, but the truth is how many times in history where what we thought was outrageously barbaric and needed fixing immediately turned out with awesome results? Because I can think of many scenarios where it failed flawlessly.

    This is not a woman running around terrorizing him or his family, or doing anything illegal or against what it is legally upheld in her country. All I'm saying is, she's not wrong just because she isn't 100% right. It's not what's preferred, so people are upset.. but what's preferred doesn't always happen. Instead of crying about it, as a supporter of a lack of violence.. let it happen, see that it doesn't change the crime rates at all, and further add to the ammunition I already have. There's nothing that's going to stop this, but saying this woman is a barbarian in her ways isn't doing anything except adding insult to injury.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    I doubt this will have any prevention effect. Acid attacks like this happen around 300 times a year, the people who commit them are essentially 'unstable'. They are a fringe group highly unlikely to consider the consequences of their actions. If anything will help prevent this sort of thing (aside from rehabilitation and other social policies) it's not allowing the public to get their hands on highly corrosive substances.

    They are in fact trying to create policies like this and they are having a significant impact (Acid Survivors Foundation (ASF)).

    The people who commit these acts likely do it out of intense emotion or with serious planning (thinking they can get away with it). In both cases they won't give much thought to the legal consequences (Much like capital punishment fails to prevent crime because of these same reasons). You even said yourself these people are psychotic.

    These attacks take the form of acid because of cultural impacts, but are much the same nature as rape and stoning attacks on women (note that 30% of acid attack victims are male). The rates for those attacks have no significant correlation to the legal penalty for commiting them (NationMaster - Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country). Same with other extreme crimes like murder (NationMaster - Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country), assault etc (NationMaster - Assaults (per capita) (most recent) by country). I'm not entirely sure about theft in Saudi Arabia, but I know it's quite high despite severing thieve's hands and beating them in public.

    Hopefully, I don't need to list succesful ways in which women can be supported and gain equal rights in such countries. None of them involve violence.
    The 300 number is vastly under-reported and part of it is the stigma that is associated with such acid attacks, particularly with females. That comes under the umbrella of "blame the victim". On the other hand, crude justice has its benefits in that the victim is handed back "control", therefore they are no longer the "victim".

    I am not suggesting that it replace all other measures in preventing attacks on women. There are many other ways, including those that you listed. But a strong stand is needed in the fight for gender equality, and if the legal system gives women control of their fates through "an eye for an eye", I will support it. I donate to Equality Now regularly, which supports women victims of violence globally. They campaign for political and human rights for women through various channels, and are attempting to hand economic and political control back to women through education.

    What pisses me off is the attitude of Western moral superiority, I guess. "She shouldn't do it because it's inhumane!" - well, women aren't treated like humans at all in such circumstances. Handing them back their dignity through control and being able to decide punishment is the first step.

    I'm not pretending to be better than I am. In an ideal world, the guy repents and spreads the word about how women are actually people and not cattle; people cry and are convinced that egalitarianism is great, hooray for equality. In this world, women are attacked because they are women, and because existing legal systems don't provide an avenue for them to pursue justice (I should know, my home country does not have domestic violence laws against abusing wives). If there is one instance where the victim can not feel impotent and stripped of her dignity, I cheer and will call for it to happen again.

  9. #129
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    Off topic, I disagree, I don't feel I need to keep quiet about what I see as barbaric and unjust in other cultures. Somethings are just undoubtably wrong, and I will actively do what I can to try in anyway I can to make changes. (infp crusader at the ready lol)
    I clearly said preach. I think you're taking my crusade word usage as being passive. I am not. The US went on a crusade to 'fix' the Indians.. instead of having more respect for what they already had, they just decided if some parts were different and didn't sit right, it was all wrong. This is a more borderline case than slavery.. You're arguing about the welfare of one criminal being treated harshly through his court systems while under the knowledge the whole time that his country has harsh potential sentences before ever committing the crime with a case where thousands of people were abused and mistreated across the globe.

    I've already stated several times I do not agree with the woman's decision personally, nor would it be what I'd have done in her situation. I can answer that with 100% certainty.
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    This is what you say, but the truth is how many times in history where what we thought was outrageously barbaric and needed fixing immediately turned out with awesome results? Because I can think of many scenarios where it failed flawlessly.
    I can name examples where it succeeded. Obviously it's not an easy process, but it's happened again and again throughout time. One culture dominates another. From a moral relativist standpoint it's expected to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    This is not a woman running around terrorizing him or his family, or doing anything illegal or against what it is legally upheld in her country. All I'm saying is, she's not wrong just because she isn't 100% right. It's not what's preferred, so people are upset.. but what's preferred doesn't always happen. Instead of crying about it, as a supporter of a lack of violence.. let it happen, see that it doesn't change the crime rates at all, and further add to the ammunition I already have. There's nothing that's going to stop this, but saying this woman is a barbarian in her ways isn't doing anything except adding insult to injury.
    The general idea of being against violence is to stop it happening, instead of letting it happen. Yes, I'm sure nothing can be done to stop it now, though I'm also sure people are trying to stop her by reaching out to let her know they see her actions as immoral for whatever reasons. Another purpose in calling her a "barbarian" is to show other people their own disapproval of her actions, so they might be persuaded not to follow her example.

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