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View Poll Results: What do you think of exercising 'eye for an eye' retribution?

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  • 'Eye for an eye' is as ancient as it is just.

    19 42.22%
  • I'm with Gandhi on this; 'an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind!"

    20 44.44%
  • Well... <insert commentary via post>

    6 13.33%
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  1. #111
    Senior Member Rangler's Avatar
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    I'm a strong believer in tough justice. Too much is tolerated and a strong signal needs to be sent if the problem is systemic. This guy disgusts me as a man.
    R[a]ngl[e]r

  2. #112
    Senior Member Valhallahereicome's Avatar
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    Society does owe her justice. But they can punish him without giving into the desire to be cruel and vindictive. Though I don't want to see her feelings pushed aside, what she's asking puts too much of a strain on the way the legal system needs to work.

    There's a reason that we don't allow victims to decide punishments in the U.S. Victims have no objectivity. When we used to let them decide the fate of the perpetrator, our justice system became a machine for cranking out very cruel, dehumanizing punishments.

    In my opinion, cruelty is something we need to stamp out in our society and it has no place in any of our government systems. We're trying (well, I know it's Iran, but let's pretend Iran is trying) to build an enlightened system where everyone gets treated like a human being - because when we deny the humanity of even one person, it puts everyone else at risk. Where does "an eye for an eye" end? I don't know how Iran's legal system works, but if it's precedent-based then the next victim of any sort of crime can argue that he/she gets to decide the punishment, and so on.

    From what I've heard, Iran already has enough trouble with dehumanizing half of its population. No reason to set things even farther back.

  3. #113
    Senior Member Rangler's Avatar
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    The implication that the United States legal system is the model the rest of the world should follow is arrogant. You have the highest percentage of your population incarcerated of any country in the world. I don't accept as fact that on average Americans are somehow worse people than anyone else. So, something is clearly broken. A good legal system provides an appropriate response to socially negative actions. An appropriate response takes into account the crime, mitigating factors, and deterrence.

    The crime was horrendous, the victim forever irreversibly damaged. There are no mitigating factors I'm aware of. And, the problem is systemic. Blinding this man is completely just.
    R[a]ngl[e]r

  4. #114
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangler View Post
    The implication that the United States legal system is the model the rest of the world should follow is arrogant. You have the highest percentage of your population incarcerated of any country in the world. I don't accept as fact that on average Americans are somehow worse people than anyone else. So, something is clearly broken.
    I would think the answer to this would be obvious.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Why so much empathy for the attacker? What about the girl who had all her life aspirations snuffed out for eternity because one man felt he was entitled to do so? What should her feelings be pushed aside once again? Society owes her justice. It's the right thing to do, even if it's unpleasant.
    I think the idea is that there's as much empathy for the attacker as there is for the victim, it's an equality thing. If burning one person's eyes is a bad thing, burning any other persons eyes is a bad thing, regardless of what they've done. This leads to only commiting the same crime again in reverse if it serves some greater good, like preventing further crimes. Whether it does or not is debatable.

    Take the situation to the extreme, if you had the option to give everyone eternal bliss or selectively do so, which would you do? People claiming empathy for the attacker are the people who would give everyone possible bliss, regardless of actions, because they aren't looking for vengeance or justice, they are looking for happiness (or whatever other positive emotion they want to maximise) and think that an eye for an eye will only decrease it in this case (and most cases).

    This opinion generally means the justice system is seen as a purely protective thing. If you can somehow prove someone is not going to commit a crime ever again then, regardless of their previous actions, there would be no point punishing them. Unless doing so actually prevents others from commiting such crimes (in which case the person's pain because of the punishment is still a con of the situation).

  6. #116
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Here's what I think....I'm not a great believer in the death penalty, for many reasons, one being if the crime is horrendous enough, killing some one just isn't good enough.

    However in this case I kinda think the women is somewhat justified in her request, the only thing that holds me back, is if I were that women could I blind the man myself ,or be there when it happens. I don't think I demand the punishment if I wasn't prepared to do by my own hand so to speak, or in this case be there in the room, while they did it.
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  7. #117
    Senior Member Rangler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    If you can somehow prove someone is not going to commit a crime ever again then, regardless of their previous actions, there would be no point punishing them.
    I respectfully disagree. This crime is not just about one persons actions. There are many cases of violence against women. This form of crime is systemic because it is consistently without an effective disincentive. Most men can buy there way out of serious trouble. The larger question is what message does this send to society. Not blinding this man would promote other instances of this behavior. How many more women should suffer because society is unwilling to adequately punish men? Retributive justice is uncomfortable, but one woman is too many.
    R[a]ngl[e]r

  8. #118
    Senior Member Valhallahereicome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangler View Post
    The implication that the United States legal system is the model the rest of the world should follow is arrogant. You have the highest percentage of your population incarcerated of any country in the world. I don't accept as fact that on average Americans are somehow worse people than anyone else. So, something is clearly broken. A good legal system provides an appropriate response to socially negative actions. An appropriate response takes into account the crime, mitigating factors, and deterrence.

    The crime was horrendous, the victim forever irreversibly damaged. There are no mitigating factors I'm aware of. And, the problem is systemic. Blinding this man is completely just.
    Well, thanks for calling me arrogant. I never said that the rest of the world should follow the U.S. system. Yes, we do have too many people in prison and there is something "broken"; a lot of people are trying to figure out what that something is. According to you, we should have harsher punishments to deter crime? But looking around the U.S., I don't think that weak punishments are really the main problem. The punishments are often already too harsh. The problem lies more in the streets than in the courthouses. A lot of people fall into crime and can't get back out; prison life has been shown to make it even harder for them to break free, rather than deterring them for next time. The problem isn't with our fancy human-rights based legal system, it's with the structure of our society and with what actually happens once people get into prison. While I'm being arrogant, though, I will say that I think a legal system that leaves out cruel and unusual punishment is a goal that any state should work toward.

    No one should be able to buy their way out of trouble. But adequate punishment doesn't have to take the form of "eye for an eye"; again, I really see this type of "justice" as spawning more problems than it solves.

  9. #119
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    I think the idea is that there's as much empathy for the attacker as there is for the victim, it's an equality thing. If burning one person's eyes is a bad thing, burning any other persons eyes is a bad thing, regardless of what they've done. This leads to only commiting the same crime again in reverse if it serves some greater good, like preventing further crimes. Whether it does or not is debatable.
    You're arguing this in terms of concepts and principles that have no application to reality.

    There is no equality in the middle East w.r.t. gender and sex. Women are forever put down and victimised in this manner, and are not accorded respect in any way.

    The acid-blinding is a manifestation of this inequality, and if the justice system is (surprisingly) to serve the female victim, I support an eye for an eye. This (as has been said before) empowers the victim because it accords her rights, i.e. the right to walk down the street and not have acid thrown in her face because she turned down a psycho.

    I am not going to accord the same rights to the guy who did it. He made his decision, and has to live with it under the laws of the land.

    IMHO the "deterrent" thing doesn't work in the US because of due process. People get to appeal and believe that they can get away with things through legal loopholes and pretend to be rehabilitated. Some are rehabilitated, of course. But I think the expectation of an immediate "eye for an eye" treatment (instead of fines, appeals and jailing/execution with rights) will be more effective. Also, if the law takes care of things, this would discourage vigilantism and foster a faith in karmic justice.

    That said, I grew up in Asia and perhaps our beliefs are "barbaric" to Westerners. I'm just saying - if that happened to my friend, sister, or my mother, I'd be all for it if it was what she wanted. Even if she believed that it wasn't about retribution.

  10. #120
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    No matter how civilized we may think we are, we will always forget the fact that we are still animals!
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

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