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  1. #51
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    If these states successfully forgo federal interference there's a substantial decrease in pork and mismanaged funds right there.
    It would demonstrate a difference in the direction of flow, but not in the efficacy of usage.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  2. #52
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    It would demonstrate a difference in the direction of flow, but not in the efficacy of usage.
    Curiously, I think quite a few states on the list to have net transfers from the Fed. I suspect that the reasons here are... not entirely rational, in the economic sense, and motivated by other factors. I haven't read enough to say, but I would think that most of these have to do with power dynamics... in that the states wants it.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    It would demonstrate a difference in the direction of flow, but not in the efficacy of usage.
    Do you think the state would start overcompensating after the loss of forced federal mandates on state spending? Where would they even get the additional money?
    I don't wanna!

  4. #54
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    Do you think the state would start overcompensating after the loss of forced federal mandates on state spending? Where would they even get the additional money?
    Regardless of the size of the pool of money to be spent, I'm saying that it can always be misspent on boondoggle or crony-oriented projects, no matter who is in charge of spending it. As Risen pointed out, the state governments aren't always that in tune with local needs. You may avoid Federally mandated requirements, but the question of who will oversee the overseers remains.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Curiously, I think quite a few states on the list to have net transfers from the Fed. I suspect that the reasons here are... not entirely rational, in the economic sense, and motivated by other factors. I haven't read enough to say, but I would think that most of these have to do with power dynamics... in that the states wants it.
    I haven't done any national research on this either, but I know that our Illinois government ( Dems and Republicans and city politicos ) haven't impressed me.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I used to visit Prison Planet a lot, for entertainment. But I check out WND about every other day. Both are complete jokes.

    WND is a little better than Jones, who champions almost every conspiracy theory he learns of.
    Nuh uh. It's all totally true. Like totally.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    I haven't done any national research on this either, but I know that our Illinois government ( Dems and Republicans and city politicos ) haven't impressed me.
    Illinois is probably not the best example to use.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #57
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    While the Federal government does have issues. secession is just, simply put, stupid. I guess if you are already in a rural lifestyle it may be fine, but from a macroeconomics view, not a single state (or even region) would have the same sustainability or quality of life they do now.

    I just think Congress is broken, and if that ever gets fixed, we'll be fine.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Nearly everything is broken. Some of us just haven't noticed yet. And the idea of fixing the old systems to run the way they used to, which didn't work in the long run, is going to hold us up from discovering what will work.

    What many can't see is that returning to what seemed workable is short-sighted attempt to return to the systems which were on their way to crashing. But we can't seem to find anything different to try because our focus continues to be on material things rather than the people who are manipulating the material things. We keep propping up the nearly dead horse for one more trot around the race track insistent that we can restore its vigor when the solution is a new horse!

    Here's an example of the kinds of structural things which will lead to division among us:

    My town is a valley town with a river running through it. Sometimes in the spring it floods people's homes. A while back the city finally amassed enough money to build dykes around the river to prevent flooding. They were built by the Army Corps of Engineers and are solid.

    Recently the State has decided that they weren't properly certified and has told the town that an inspector from a private firm must inspect them at a cost of $150,000. But the town is broken and broke. The local swimming pool may haved to close before the summer is out and funds have been cut in all the human services areas of government which provide assistance to the mentally ill, the handicapped, minorities, the poor, Senior Citizens and youth. Public protection and transportation is also taking a hit.

    But we're supposed to come up with this money to certify our sturdy flood control system which has already been inspected by the Corps and by local inspectors. And the beneficiary of the money will be some private company possibly not even within our state.

    The city's response has been, "Nope. Won't do it. Can't do it. There is no money."

    This is going to be happening nationally as laws which have been designed to line private industry's pockets (and prevent frivolous lawsuits) no longer become financially feasible. Peope are going to be putting their feet down and saying, "What about my children? What about my grandmother? How am I supposed to get to work in the morning?"

    And there will be a closing of the ranks among those whom are motivated by things other than getting rich. In fact, soon keeping food on the table will be the major concern of many of us.

    On the other hand we will have the people who have focussed on materialism. The "What's in it for me?" people who are going to move in and try to manipulate to keep the money coming.

    Eventually we are going to see a breakdown of legal restraints for public behavior.

    I'm watching with interest to see what the higher authority will do now that one little city has said, "No more money for you. We need it for ourselves."

    Watch for examples of this in your own communities. It will become extremely divisive as the money grows more scarce.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Nearly everything is broken. Some of us just haven't noticed yet. And the idea of fixing the old systems to run the way they used to, which didn't work in the long run, is going to hold us up from discovering what will work.

    What many can't see is that returning to what seemed workable is short-sighted attempt to return to the systems which were on their way to crashing. But we can't seem to find anything different to try because our focus continues to be on material things rather than the people who are manipulating the material things. We keep propping up the nearly dead horse for one more trot around the race track insistent that we can restore its vigor when the solution is a new horse!
    What systems do you propose "do not work"?

    As for local examples of the tides turning, I don't want to sound like I think one group's situation is more important than anyone else's at this time, but everyone should be watching California as a shining example of WHY MASSIVE GOVERNMENT AND SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK. We have an unprecedented level of financial problems. CA is the EIGHTH largest economy in the world, and we are in a heap load of shit right now. Our unemployment is reaching double digits. We have the highest sales, income, and gas taxes in the nation, and yet the damn state cannot afford to keep itself afloat. This is because the government refuses to cut its ridiculous expenditures on senseless programs. It is because the size of our government has DOUBLED in the past 10 years. It is because our legislature is almost completely beholden to the interests of the unions. Our teachers union... CA has the highest payed teachers in the nation, and you know what??? We have some of the highest drop out rates as well, nearly 50% . Our schools and education are shitty, and yet they funnel more and more cash to the teachers unions because they demand it.

    The unions and government workers protest whenever they face job losses. While the unemployment of the state is nearing double digits (already double digits if you consider people who have stopped looking for work and have run out of unemployment benefits), the government does not want to cut its own size or stop giving money to the unions; all at the expense of the tax payers. Today they just passed a $14 BILLION a year tax increase, with (get this) a proposed spending cap bill to be voted on by the tax payers in a few months. Oh yay, the government will finally cut its spending! Oh but wait, the bill also says it will add TWO MORE YEARS of the same tax increases. Doesn't really pan out as a spending cap...

    CA is now selling bonds TO ITSELF because nobody will buy our bonds anymore. The state is having to pay in IOU's (tax payers included) because it is out of money. The local governments and counties are refusing to send money back to the state/Sacramento because they know the state will waste it and the counties wont be able to support themselves. The government structure is starting to crack.

    Businesses are leaving the state in droves because they cannot afford to do business here. Segments of our government are openly anti-business. The state refuses to drill for oil despite the fact it could pay ALL OF ITS DEFICITS if it drilled its own oil. I guarantee we are going to have a tax revolt in this state as the legislature drives us further into a recession with taxes and anti business policies. There are A LOT of Californians who are getting fed up with this circus. As the saying goes: as CA goes, so goes the rest of the country.

    *Oops, and I forget to mention the $10~$13 Billion we spend on illegal immigrants every year.*

    *I'm sorry, I meant to say that we could cover all of our deficits if we just uncapped the oil/gas wells that we ALREADY have drilled, we don't even need to drill more.*

  10. #60
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    What systems do you propose "do not work"?

    Any system which works to serve it's own interests rather than the interests it was established for. This includes our present religious, educational, legal, medical and political systems.

    I believe you are right that CA is truly the place to look to see the types of social breakdowns which we will experience. When I heard of the first bank failing in CA last spring I thought to myself, "Here we go."

    I've long been attracted to the concept of macrocosms/microcosms to predict future patterns.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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