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  1. #11
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    You have to be careful how you frame the question, and the answer.

    Succeed in generally making things better? Yes.

    But succeed in his planned methods to do so? No, I don't think it will bring about that first Success.

    By now, we all know politics, and we all know how this goes. It was similar with the "You don't support the troops" debate that was big a few years ago. Now it's "You don't support the president." The point is that these are said while ignoring how we know most people actually feel about these matters. Most people know they aren't true to begin with, but they argue the points anyway.

    Side Note:
    I would also hope that we can "make things better" with as little assistance from the president as possible. More than 300 million people counting on one superhero? I think we need to start working together, as no one person can end these "bad times." I'm also glad Barack Obama has said so in some of his speeches, though I have a feeling that that was political code, and not the same thing I'm talking about.

    In other words, "Yes We Can" instead of "Yes Obama Can."
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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    And if short-term "success" disguises an outcome worse than the counterfactual, and/or (most importantly) eventually leads to long-term problems that are extremely difficult to overcome? I hope for the best for my country, which is why I hope Obama is not successful in enacting his long-term goals. Your position does not indicate superior patriotism, simply a lack of confidence in your principles and beliefs (or a lack of either, or a lack of opposition to Obama's), and possibly a mindset that is highly susceptible to political manipulation. I certainly hope the economy improves, etc, but I don't hope that Obama's policies are (deceptively) successful, due to the long-term implications. There's a huge differences in wishing Obama success, and in wishing the country success during the Obama presidency.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    You have to be careful how you frame the question, and the answer.

    Succeed in generally making things better? Yes.

    But succeed in his planned methods to do so? No, I don't think it will bring about that first Success.

    By now, we all know politics, and we all know how this goes. It was similar with the "You don't support the troops" debate that was big a few years ago. Now it's "You don't support the president." The point is that these are said while ignoring how we know most people actually feel about these matters. Most people know they aren't true to begin with, but they argue the points anyway.

    Side Note:
    I would also hope that we can "make things better" with as little assistance from the president as possible. More than 300 million people counting on one superhero? I think we need to start working together, as no one person can end these "bad times." I'm also glad Barack Obama has said so in some of his speeches, though I have a feeling that that was political code, and not the same thing I'm talking about.

    In other words, "Yes We Can" instead of "Yes Obama Can."
    Points taken. But it has kinda-of become clear what he is talking about is making sure there is failure, even if it means the country goes in the wrong direction. In other words, he wants us to loose wars, screw-up the economy furhter, and all around have a catastrophe...all for an "I told you so." This is what I am seeing and hearing from many Republicans (and I voted for some).

    The fact of the matter is ideology is what created our mess. We can follow the ideology on both the left and right that deepened this mess.

    It'd be nice to see pragmatism for a change.

    Otherwise, next (midterm) election, I am not voting split ticket. In fact, if this keeps up, I'll be part of the grass-roots effort, make "bipartisan" efforts a moot point after the mid-term...and it'll be starting even now.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Just more drama and showmanship at work.

    The guy knows how to work his crowd.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
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    Funny how Limbaugh blames liberalism for the state of the economy. Who was in power for the last 8 years?

    I read somewhere else that Limbaugh and Co. are now suggesting the economic crisis was a conspiracy orchestrated by Democrats and the so-called liberal media to help them win the election and justify nationalizing the banking, auto and mortgage industries. They might as well go on to say that this sinister Democratic cabal was also behind putting Bush in power for two terms, knowing full well that his failed policies and unpopularity would pave the way for Obama.

  5. #15
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Points taken. But it has kinda-of become clear what he is talking about is making sure there is failure, even if it means the country goes in the wrong direction. In other words, he wants us to loose wars, screw-up the economy furhter, and all around have a catastrophe...all for an "I told you so." This is what I am seeing and hearing from many Republicans (and I voted for some).
    If Obama succeeds, the premises of his ideology would become unpinned. That's the underlying psychology. He truly, deeply, fears that Obama will succeed. A bit more than "I told you so", but essentially the same thing.

  6. #16
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysterio View Post
    Who was in power for the last 8 years?
    You realize there are three branches of government, right? And that one of those branches consist of two houses, one of which can filibuster legislation with only 41 votes?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    You realize there are three branches of government, right? And that one of those branches consist of two houses, one of which can filibuster legislation with only 41 votes?
    Amazingly, I did know that, but thanks for checking. I also know that Republicans had the majority in both houses of congress for 6 of Bush's 8 years, not to mention the majority of right wing justices in the Supreme Court. The bottom line is that the country has followed their course for the last 8 years, and the main cause of the wrecked economy is one of their sacred cows: deregulation.

  8. #18
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    I remember them saying that there was going to be oversight connected to the way the first "package" was used, which Paulson asked for and who was basically in charge of it. Later they said that we would have to wait for a "second package" that Obama would have more authority over, before we would actually see that happen. Now, of course, everyone is in a big "rush" to get it through, and so it will be interesting to see what strings they can attach to it while attempting to get it passed. Paulson and Obama both ( scarily ) have ties to Goldman Sachs, which managed to stay relatively unaffected by the crisis.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  9. #19
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysterio View Post
    Amazingly, I did know that, but thanks for checking. I also know that Republicans had the majority in both houses of congress for 6 of Bush's 8 years, not to mention the majority of right wing justices in the Supreme Court. The bottom line is that the country has followed their course for the last 8 years, and the main cause of the wrecked economy is one of their sacred cows: deregulation.
    Actually, I think the Republicans controlled both Houses for slightly over four years, from Jan. 2003 to Jan. 2007, as well as the first few months of 2001. I'm glad you at least knew about Democratic control of the House of Representatives for the last two years, a very large percentage of Obama voters did not. Finally, I think blaming the economic crisis on deregulation is more than a little simplistic.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Actually, I think the Republicans controlled both Houses for slightly over four years, from Jan. 2003 to Jan. 2007, as well as the first few months of 2001. I'm glad you at least knew about Democratic control of the House of Representatives for the last two years, a very large percentage of Obama voters did not. Finally, I think blaming the economic crisis on deregulation is more than a little simplistic.
    And if I remember correctly, that "deregulation" may have started in the Clinton administration. I might be wrong on that though (somebody check please). Either way, blaming our problems on one part or the other is the biggest fallacy you'll ever make. The blame is in both of them, as well as BEYOND them.

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