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  1. #81
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    You made me smile, pt!

    My concern is the emotional health of the masses. Yes, we have a multitude of strong, educated people in the country. But are they going to pick up the ball and shoulder the load? I'm not convinced enough of them will.

    We got a lotta whiners in this country who want it to be easy because it always has been.

    Wannabe rock stars don't like to clean toilets.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  2. #82
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    We got a lotta whiners in this country who want it to be easy because it always has been.

    Wannabe rock stars don't like to clean toilets.
    Oh, my... no. This isn't about wanting it easy. I'd be willing to do practical things, I just couldn't stand to live in a world where there are nothing but practical things. There has to be room for impractical things, like ideas, stories, sharing information, communication, thinking. And without books, newspapers, the Internet, or television, I don't see that happening.

    We probably wouldn't even have toilets in such a world, though. No one would be able to run the manufacturing plants because there would be no electricity, and no one would be there to maintain the plumbing. A lot of people probably wouldn't even know what those things were anymore, because it would all be focused on subsisting with the bare minimum. It would just be agriculture, hunting, badly-built shacks, and nothing else. We'd be back to outhouses at best... or just going behind a tree at worst.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I agree. I need a lot of cultural input also. That's where we'd fall back on our own inner resources. But so many of us don't know how to do that anymore. We are accustomed to those being provided for us.

    I gave a toy horse of my daughter's to a little neighborhood girl one day. She gave it back to me and said, "I don't want it. It doesn't DO anything." Wow.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  4. #84
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I gave a toy horse of my daughter's to a little neighborhood girl one day. She gave it back to me and said, "I don't want it. It doesn't DO anything."
    Generation gap. Each assumes the norm of their generation. It doesn't have to follow that it is a matter of spoiled. I know, I know. But every generation sounds like that child to the older generation. Every generation has their 'damn hippy' equivalent. And every generation worries that the world is going to fail because of their children. Every culture - heh, you should see what older Asians say about their kids, the cultural change there is incredible.

    You can read the same editorials from many generations back and get the same impression.

    And on the topic of the OP, the same goes for the economy. Strangely enough, it goes well together, as generations always tend to blame each other when things are bad, and then take credit when things are good.

  5. #85
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I agree. I need a lot of cultural input also. That's where we'd fall back on our own inner resources. But so many of us don't know how to do that anymore. We are accustomed to those being provided for us.
    I can come up with ideas of how to communicate things, certainly. There are always pictures and such. The problem is that if there's no cultural input, it's very hard to get everyone to agree on how to interpret symbols. I would probably have to wander between various groups of people and develop an understanding of what various things meant to each of them and try to put it in terms they could understand.

    Communicating abstract concepts to illiterate, disconnected people who don't know how to think beyond the practical is not easy, and possibly not even safe. It would be like being a missionary or something. Maybe I should research the kind of things they did while I have time. Also, if there were no communication networks like newspapers or the internet, that would severely limit exposure to information. I just see the loss of such vast resources of ideas, information, and opportunities for communication and exchange, like books, newspapers, and the Internet... as a terrible thing. It's all being taken away because of the economy, and no one can do anything to stop it. It's depressing, really.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    This just in on the news:

    Wells Fargo, which received a $25 billion dollar bailout from the government is planning a corporate junket for all of its top lenders with all expenses paid. To Las Vegas, no less. The national capitol of represented greed and excess and desire for more. Is that in our faces or what?

    This is the example of the out-of-control greed that is rampant and is destroying us.

    The attitude is so blatant. They deserve their perks no matter whose money they have to use to do it.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #87
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Generation gap. Each assumes the norm of their generation. It doesn't have to follow that it is a matter of spoiled. I know, I know. But every generation sounds like that child to the older generation. Every generation has their 'damn hippy' equivalent. And every generation worries that the world is going to fail because of their children. Every culture - heh, you should see what older Asians say about their kids, the cultural change there is incredible.

    You can read the same editorials from many generations back and get the same impression.

    And on the topic of the OP, the same goes for the economy. Strangely enough, it goes well together, as generations always tend to blame each other when things are bad, and then take credit when things are good.
    You are certainly becoming aware of the generation gap, pt. But its implications are much more complicated at present than they have been for quite a long time.

    It wasn't a matter of "spoiled" that I was referring to. It's simple to put small people down for that. They all are and always have been seen that way by everone but their grandparents. I'm not doing the intergenerational whining thing that all adults do. That's simply entertainment for some.

    I am talking about basic human values which promote healthy existence. Not the shaming and blaming which some are given to.

    A child who has spent so much time in front of the computer that he lacks imagination has scary implications for our future. I see this trend.

    And there are recent scientific studies which seem to indicate that children are no longer learning important social skills during their most important developmental window of opportunity because their focus has been allowed to slip away from personal development in all life areas to a dependence on technology to provide all his needs.

    I take these things much more seriously than you apparently. And I see evidence of their truths all about me as I talk to young people.

    In a sense the young have been lulled into a false sense of security by the media.

    Current efforts to provide hope seem pretty transparent to me. An attempt to keep the masses from revolting, as has always been done. We may have to eventually resort to a common enemy to fight to keep people from noticing. That's a common ploy - point the finger somewhere else.

    Do you know about the huge number of "detention camps" which are currently being built in the US to "house illegal aliens?" Most don't. It's being kept pretty quiet and is classified information. Why?

    We do, in the US, have people anticipating the worst and rightly so. They're not saying much about it, though. Why?

    In true INFP fashion this was a pretty scattershot post. But I think a focus larger than on money is crucial.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  8. #88
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I heard a comment the other day from an acquaintance who said, "The government doesn't have to hide the big secrets because the public will deny they exist." People can be unaware of the larger scope of actions and their implications.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  9. #89
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Whoa. I'm just goin' on now. I remember when I trusted the government. I think many transfer their dependence on their parents to the government or technology or sumpin. The waking up process is slow.

    My generation trusted in demonstration and freedom of speech and it was a painful awakening, indeed, when "they" shot a few of us down in Kent State. Unimaginable. But. . . Thit happens.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  10. #90
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    A child who has spent so much time in front of the computer that he lacks imagination has scary implications for our future. I see this trend.
    I see the opposite trend - away from the previous generation's TV influence, and the new interactive media generation. I'm an example of the new generation in computers - I'd be in the upper 10% of my generation as far as computer time goes, and have been since I was a kid.

    I would go as far as to say that computer use correlates to imagination and creativity, although causation probably doesn't rest with computers. My experience is that, even in the new geneation of LOL kids, the more abstract ones are the ones that prefer computers. Granted, that's diminished as computers become more of a fixture, but still seems to hold true. As much as it pains me to actually support the 12 year old, horribly annoying, chat-freak girls of the next generation

    And there are recent scientific studies which seem to indicate that children are no longer learning important social skills during their most important developmental window of opportunity because their focus has been allowed to slip away from personal development in all life areas to a dependence on technology to provide all his needs.
    I remember reading similar studies in psychology classes... from the fifties. Nearly word for word - dependence on this or that, social issues. I'm pretty blase about studies like this now, because I see negatives in everything. All change will include negatives... and we are really bad at doing the cost-benefit analysis.

    I take these things much more seriously than you apparently. And I see evidence of their truths all about me as I talk to young people.
    I would agree that you do, on both accounts. And I don't see that as positive, just as you see my rose-colored/blase version as naive/inexperienced/sign of the times.

    Do you know about the huge number of "detention camps" which are currently being built in the US to "house illegal aliens?" Most don't. It's being kept pretty quiet and is classified information. Why?
    Not classified, it's part of the immigration act, as a I remember. Accelerated due to the policies of the last 8 years, originally used when captured, before 'extraditing' them. It's a particular ideology that moved it forward. Quiet? That's the compliance the US had. There was a lot of quiet around a lot of policies.

    We do, in the US, have people anticipating the worst and rightly so. They're not saying much about it, though. Why?
    Confidence is the historical explanation. So are people 'rightly anticipating the worst'. It's only right if the "worst" actually happens, so most of the periods were quite wrong, given the expectation of mutual destruction, cold war, oil wars, communism in asia... the list goes on, and is local to every location. The worst can and does happen, but we are very lousy at knowing that in advance.

    The only advice for the OP that will have much meaning is to put some money away, don't get over-leveraged, learn a few life skills. And that's pretty good advice in good times, useless in bad.

    In true INFP fashion this was a pretty scattershot post. But I think a focus larger than on money is crucial.
    What I can't quite understand is your opinion that the younger generation seems to be misguided/at fault, and yet the world is mostly run by older folk. I'm guessing this is the scattershot (ie: "many things are wrong"), and not neccessarily connected, but it does raise the question - do you think they are?

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