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  1. #31
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Okay, really quickly: I fail to understand what the big deal is!

    Everything in nature - in life, really - is cyclical, with positive and negative aspects. With ups and downs. Light and dark. Life and death. Booms and busts. Inflation and recession, and sometimes both!

    So why do people think the economy, which is the most cyclical thing I know, would improve forever and ever? Perhaps because government has kept it on the rise *unnaturally* for *so long* due to low interest rates set by the Fed? Hmmm....

    Now the sh*t is hitting the fan, and if your politicians are bright at all, they will let nature take its course. The longer politicians/government try to keep the sun from setting, the more disappointed they are going to be....

    This is not about big government coming and *saving the day.* This is about big government keeping its nose out of this business and letting things stabilise before you guys really *are* confronted with a great depression!
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Okay, really quickly: I fail to understand what the big deal is!

    Everything in nature - in life, really - is cyclical, with positive and negative aspects. With ups and downs. Light and dark. Life and death. Booms and busts. Inflation and recession, and sometimes both!

    So why do people think the economy, which is the most cyclical thing I know, would improve forever and ever? Perhaps because government has kept it on the rise *unnaturally* for *so long* due to low interest rates set by the Fed? Hmmm....

    Now the sh*t is hitting the fan, and if your politicians are bright at all, they will let nature take its course. The longer politicians/government try to keep the sun from setting, the more disappointed they are going to be....

    This is not about big government coming and *saving the day.* This is about big government keeping its nose out of this business and letting things stabilise before you guys really *are* confronted with a great depression!
    Yes.

    I think we are in the midst of a paradigm shift (once again, from a historical perspective.) Time to change the way we do/perceive things rather than keep trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

    Whenever I hear someone say, "I can't wait to get back to my old self again." I think to myself, "Nope. Not where you want to go. You were in the process of becoming ill!"

    If we don't want what we keep getting it's time for doing/perceiving something differently.

    Edit: And Little? I don't think it's just going to by "Us Guys." We have moved into a global perspective and are all going to be, and are, affected by what the other does.

    Sounds a lot like what we were taught as kids. The "do unto others" stuff is playing out. A lesson worth attending to.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #33
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Human nature is the problem, has always been the problem and will continue to be the problem because we have no ability as a group to maintain the comfortable medium.
    You might as well be saying that the problem is that humans have two arms and two legs...if only we could change.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #34
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You might as well be saying that the problem is that humans have two arms and two legs...if only we could change.
    Yes. I might as well be saying, "That's the way it is. Get over it." The wheel has turned and is irreversable at this point. As it always is.

    We just seem to have had the bad luck to be born on the cusp of a shift. Too bad it wasn't at the dawning of The Enlightenment! Now we'll have to reinvent that, I suppose, after enough human misery.

    Something new will take it's place. How soon and by what method are the only questions I have.

    Meanwhile Mankind always has always hoped that they can develop a foolproof system. At times to the point of laughable hubris.

    I suppose my viewpoint would be considered INFP.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Yes. I might as well be saying, ""That's the way it is. Get over it." The wheel has turned and is irreversable at this point. As it always is.

    We just seem to have had the bad luck to be born on the cusp of a shift. Too bad it wasn't at the dawning of The Enlightenment! Now we'll have to reinvent that, I suppose, after enough human misery.

    Something new will take it's place. How soon and by what method are the only questions I have.

    Meanwhile Mankind always has always hoped that they can develop a foolproof system. At times to the point of laughable hubris.

    I suppose my viewpoint would be considered INFP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Okay, really quickly: I fail to understand what the big deal is!

    Everything in nature - in life, really - is cyclical, with positive and negative aspects. With ups and downs. Light and dark. Life and death. Booms and busts. Inflation and recession, and sometimes both!

    So why do people think the economy, which is the most cyclical thing I know, would improve forever and ever? Perhaps because government has kept it on the rise *unnaturally* for *so long* due to low interest rates set by the Fed? Hmmm....

    Now the sh*t is hitting the fan, and if your politicians are bright at all, they will let nature take its course. The longer politicians/government try to keep the sun from setting, the more disappointed they are going to be....

    This is not about big government coming and *saving the day.* This is about big government keeping its nose out of this business and letting things stabilise before you guys really *are* confronted with a great depression!
    Exactly right. The problem here is that generations will always seek to reinvent the wheel, particularly when they know nothing of the history of man that preceded them. What we are doing now is a gross repetition of history's old lessons. Human nature shall always be the cause of our problems; the time old vices of humanity that have always corrupted us. The errors of the twentieth century progressive movement and the socialist movements across the globe are very much a mirror of what we have today. Foolish upstarts, "intellectuals", and ignoramus's sharing in a common, childish vision of a Utopian dream world. The very belief that any system derived from man could eliminate our problems, with the power of the system alone, is the greatest mistake human kind has repeated like a broken record.

    The belief that the economy should always be up, that we should always be prosperous, that we will never experience pain or loss, that the world will always be the same, that the climate will always remain unchanging and comfortable stems from the same immature, ignorant, Utopian fantasy. To believe that government can solve all our problems, that it can take away our liberties so it may govern over us in our stead for not being a virtuous people who can govern ourselves and maintain order in our own lives, and that morality, common sense, and integrity doesn't matter in those whom we elect is an unconscionable mindset.

    To look outside ourselves for the solutions to problems that began within us, in our own flaws, is the hallmark of fools. The greatest sadness in this world is the fact that fools will always exist, and a fool knows not his own foolishness.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Snoopy22's Avatar
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    Still not as bad as it was during the Carter regime, we need some inflation to make life really pleasant.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    All I hear is all the bum news on the economy and how things are apparently still downward spiraling. I don't understand the magnitude of it though and the likeliness that this will end up as a major catastrophe. Someone fill me in, please. I'd be self-reliable but I really don't know where to start.

    P.S. 4,000th post
    I think the biggest problem is most people do not see the overall Macro picture. Everyone hear's our stimulus, our job losses, our politicians, etc...

    When you look at the world at a whole, it gets...more exciting.

    I was just in the U.K. and it is very interesting to hear/see what another country is going through. Throw in the issues I know of worldwide, it all adds up.

    It won't be the end of the world but it (hopefully) will be a generational changer...for the better.

  8. #38
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    You don't understand the part greed has played in our present problems? That's hard for me to understand!
    Greed is irrelevent.

    Suppose that people were paying back their debts easily. Suppose that homes were not over-priced. Suppose that the Federal Reserve and banking system did not artificially expand the credit supply. Suppose that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were sound. Suppose that there are no problems. If everything here were true, then all these transactions would have been mutually beneficial for all involved. Everyone would be wealthier and happier and secure. And guess what? The greed would still have been there.

    Greed is always there (why do you think people are trading at all?). It is usually tempered by fear--fear that debtors will default. But the U.S. Government--and governments around the world--alleviated or removed that fear by guaranteeing debt, suppressing interest rates, and penalising caution. In effect, they socialised the losses. It is like telling a gambler that any winnings are his to keep, but any losses are someone elses problem. What do you think that gambler will do?

    Greed may have been the motivation for these bad investments, but it would have also been the motivation if they were good investments. Greed is a common factor in both scenarios, and therefore, explains nothing.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  9. #39
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Exactly right. The problem here is that generations will always seek to reinvent the wheel, particularly when they know nothing of the history of man that preceded them. What we are doing now is a gross repetition of history's old lessons. Human nature shall always be the cause of our problems; the time old vices of humanity that have always corrupted us. The errors of the twentieth century progressive movement and the socialist movements across the globe are very much a mirror of what we have today. Foolish upstarts, "intellectuals", and ignoramus's sharing in a common, childish vision of a Utopian dream world. The very belief that any system derived from man could eliminate our problems, with the power of the system alone, is the greatest mistake human kind has repeated like a broken record.

    The belief that the economy should always be up, that we should always be prosperous, that we will never experience pain or loss, that the world will always be the same, that the climate will always remain unchanging and comfortable stems from the same immature, ignorant, Utopian fantasy. To believe that government can solve all our problems, that it can take away our liberties so it may govern over us in our stead for not being a virtuous people who can govern ourselves and maintain order in our own lives, and that morality, common sense, and integrity doesn't matter in those whom we elect is an unconscionable mindset.

    To look outside ourselves for the solutions to problems that began within us, in our own flaws, is the hallmark of fools. The greatest sadness in this world is the fact that fools will always exist, and a fool knows not his own foolishness.
    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Greed is irrelevent.

    Suppose that people were paying back their debts easily. Suppose that homes were not over-priced. Suppose that the Federal Reserve and banking system did not artificially expand the credit supply. Suppose that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were sound. Suppose that there are no problems. If everything here were true, then all these transactions would have been mutually beneficial for all involved. Everyone would be wealthier and happier and secure. And guess what? The greed would still have been there.

    Greed is always there (why do you think people are trading at all?). It is usually tempered by fear--fear that debtors will default. But the U.S. Government--and governments around the world--alleviated or removed that fear by guaranteeing debt, suppressing interest rates, and penalising caution. In effect, they socialised the losses. It is like telling a gambler that any winnings are his to keep, but any losses are someone elses problem. What do you think that gambler will do?

    Greed may have been the motivation for these bad investments, but it would have also been the motivation if they were good investments. Greed is a common factor in both scenarios, and therefore, explains nothing.
    Couldn't have said it better myself.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  10. #40
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    With all respect to the Little Linguist, I do not think that our current economic crisis, in the States at least, represents only another trough in the natural boom-and-bust cycle of the economy.

    Our government has, in the last six months, hit up the Federal Reserve for over a trillion dollars in loans in an attempt to revive the economy. Not only have such efforts proven ineffective, the loans themselves represent a serious danger. To wit:

    Take out a dollar bill and look at what's printed on it. Among other things, you'll find the words "FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE." Also, "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private." Up until the Nixon administration, the dollar was defined as being worth a fixed quantity of gold; so the market value of gold determined the market value of the dollar. Now, however, we have decoupled the dollar from any commodity, gold or anything else, and its value is determined solely by the market's confidence in the Federal Reserve. In essence, the dollar is now an IOU promising that the US Federal Reserve can make good on its value.

    Well, the Federal Reserve just assumed over a trillion dollars worth of debt, with more expected as soon as the next stimulus package gets signed into law. What effect do you think this will have on the market's confidence in the Federal Reserve? And, hence, the value of the dollar?

    If in the morning China decides to dump all the dollars its holding and exchange them for Euros, by tomorrow afternoon the dollar you were just looking at will be worth maybe a quarter... maybe. Maybe it'll only be worth a dime, or maybe not even that much.

    People back in the 1960s and 1970s built and stocked bomb shelters. Up into the 1980s some of your rabid right-wingers were still looking for a civilization-threatening catastrophe. They thought they might have found it in Y2K. But this... This current economic meltdown we're facing might actually be it.

    Hopefully not... but honestly, I'm pretty apprehensive. Government borrowing is off the charts. We are literally in unmapped territory, economically. Who knows? Maybe it's a good time to start stocking up on canned goods.

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