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  1. #21
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I think you're inviting me into a game.

    Here's a couple of examples:

    Asking for federal assistance and then giving yourself a chunky bonus.

    Asking for federal assistance and then planning to buy a new superject from France.
    I guess those are examples, but those are after the fact (after the financial meltdown). If no federal assistance was given out, then your examples would not even be an issue.

    What is greed?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #22
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    All I hear is all the bum news on the economy and how things are apparently still downward spiraling. I don't understand the magnitude of it though and the likeliness that this will end up as a major catastrophe. Someone fill me in, please. I'd be self-reliable but I really don't know where to start.

    P.S. 4,000th post
    Overall I'd say we're in for some bumpier times than we're used to, but this recession will not be as bad as The Great Depression.

    This is how I understand what has happened (and is happening) to us. Recessions are a normal part of the business cycle, and you can normally point to what caused the recession each time, but regardless of the cause recessions are usually fairly mild and then we get back to economic growth. For example a few years ago a lot of people invested in dotcoms and eventually that bubble burst, and there was a mild recession. This sort of thing is a normal part of the business cycle. This time around the normal part of our recession should have been caused by a spike in oil prices because of the growing worldwide demand. This in itself would have caused another mild recession.

    However there is one industry which I consider to be different than all of the other industries and that is the credit/banking industry. All other industries depend on the banking industry, since money is created through lending and that fuels the whole economy. Ideally a country's banking industry will be tightly regulated, because it is so fundamental to all of the other industries. Unfortunately, the banking industry had been greatly deregulated over the past decade and had gradually adopted a lot of risky practices. Again it should be fine for any other industry to do risky things, but ideally the banks act as safely as possible. The banks are the foundation for everything else in the economy.

    So basically the banks had created a huge house of cards through credit default swaps and bundled subprime securities, and the spike in oil prices was the gust of wind that blew it over. Recessions happen, and that's a fact, so if it wasn't oil prices it would have been something else that made the economy contract. As long as the banks are ok the recession will be fairly mild. Well a few months ago we had some banks collapse, and now we are hearing about a lot of businesses planning on making cutbacks in employment. That's a natural result of all of the money lost because the banks aren't lending much money right now.

    This recession is going to be worse than anything we are accustomed to, because we've lost a lot of wealth. There won't be as much money to buy goods and services in the 2009 economy compared to the 2007 economy. On the other hand from what I've been reading it doesn't look nearly as bad as The Great Depression. The thing is there is a huge gap in between a normal recession and The Great Depression. During a healthy economy unemployment is about 5% and during a recession it might go up to about 7%. During The Great Depression unemployment went to about 25% at it's peak. So there is a huge gap there between 7% unemployment and 25%. During this recession I have little doubt unemployment will reach at least 10%, and it might go even higher than that. At the same time I doubt it will get anywhere near Great Depression levels.

    How bad will the recession be for you personally? That is hard to say. It depends on if you are among that 10+% that will be unemployed. Even if things go well for you, I'd expect you'll know several people that will struggle to find work over the next couple of years. Overall this recession is going to be worse than anything we're used to, but it won't be catastrophic.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I guess those are examples, but those are after the fact (after the financial meltdown). If no federal assistance was given out, then your examples would not even be an issue.

    What is greed?
    I just figured out where you are going with this and I'm not going there. I don't get my idealogy out of a book but rather through observing human behavior. I apply no political lables to those ideas.

    If you need to label me, "Humanist" would be appropriate.

    I've said it before: If the operator is impaired the machine is not going to run properly. A focus on money? Too late for that. We are a nation of impaired people.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  4. #24
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I just figured out where you are going with this and I'm not going there. I don't get my idealogy out of a book but rather through observing human behavior. I apply no political lables to those ideas.

    If you need to label me, "Humanist" would be appropriate.

    I've said it before: If the operator is impaired the machine is not going to run properly. A focus on money? Too late for that. We are a nation of impaired people.
    Where I was going was this...

    Greed (at least according to me) is simply self-interest. Any social, political, or economic system we have should work with human nature, not against it. And since "greed" is part of human nature, we need to focus on fixing the system, not demonizing behavior. Behavior is predictable. This economic meltdown was predictable. The question shouldn't be, "how can we stop people from being greedy", it should be, "what caused these greedy individuals to make so many poor decisions"?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #25
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Libertarians and conservatives don't like talking about greed, because they're pro unregulated free-market.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Where I was going was this...

    Greed (at least according to me) is simply self-interest. Any social, political, or economic system we have should work with human nature, not against it. And since "greed" is part of human nature, we need to focus on fixing the system, not demonizing behavior. Behavior is predictable. This economic meltdown was predictable. The question shouldn't be, "how can we stop people from being greedy", it should be, "what caused these greedy individuals to make so many poor decisions"?
    I called it!!!

  6. #26
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    I agree with Anja in that greed, as well as corruption, and a complete degradation of virtues, principles, moral character, and integrity, is the root cause of most of our problems in government.

    When people act out of greed, they do things for the best benefit of themselves. The left will often complain that capitalism doesn't work because of this. That is wrong. The system of capitalism works just fine as it always has. The system doesn't fail, it's the people who fail to operate it effectively. The "operator error" comes from making decisions that are decidedly not in the best interest of their fellow man, and are only self serving. Bending the rules and doing whatever is necessary to accomplish their goals at the behest of everyone else. That is what degrades capitalism. I've probably said this a hundred times. Unfortunately, people nowadays just don't want to look at themselves as being the cause of their own problems, and own up to the responsibility and accountability.

  7. #27
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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  8. #28
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Overall I'd say we're in for some bumpier times than we're used to, but this recession will not be as bad as The Great Depression.

    This is how I understand what has happened (and is happening) to us. Recessions are a normal part of the business cycle, and you can normally point to what caused the recession each time, but regardless of the cause recessions are usually fairly mild and then we get back to economic growth. For example a few years ago a lot of people invested in dotcoms and eventually that bubble burst, and there was a mild recession. This sort of thing is a normal part of the business cycle. This time around the normal part of our recession should have been caused by a spike in oil prices because of the growing worldwide demand. This in itself would have caused another mild recession.

    However there is one industry which I consider to be different than all of the other industries and that is the credit/banking industry. All other industries depend on the banking industry, since money is created through lending and that fuels the whole economy. Ideally a country's banking industry will be tightly regulated, because it is so fundamental to all of the other industries. Unfortunately, the banking industry had been greatly deregulated over the past decade and had gradually adopted a lot of risky practices. Again it should be fine for any other industry to do risky things, but ideally the banks act as safely as possible. The banks are the foundation for everything else in the economy.

    So basically the banks had created a huge house of cards through credit default swaps and bundled subprime securities, and the spike in oil prices was the gust of wind that blew it over. Recessions happen, and that's a fact, so if it wasn't oil prices it would have been something else that made the economy contract. As long as the banks are ok the recession will be fairly mild. Well a few months ago we had some banks collapse, and now we are hearing about a lot of businesses planning on making cutbacks in employment. That's a natural result of all of the money lost because the banks aren't lending much money right now.

    This recession is going to be worse than anything we are accustomed to, because we've lost a lot of wealth. There won't be as much money to buy goods and services in the 2009 economy compared to the 2007 economy. On the other hand from what I've been reading it doesn't look nearly as bad as The Great Depression. The thing is there is a huge gap in between a normal recession and The Great Depression. During a healthy economy unemployment is about 5% and during a recession it might go up to about 7%. During The Great Depression unemployment went to about 25% at it's peak. So there is a huge gap there between 7% unemployment and 25%. During this recession I have little doubt unemployment will reach at least 10%, and it might go even higher than that. At the same time I doubt it will get anywhere near Great Depression levels.

    How bad will the recession be for you personally? That is hard to say. It depends on if you are among that 10+% that will be unemployed. Even if things go well for you, I'd expect you'll know several people that will struggle to find work over the next couple of years. Overall this recession is going to be worse than anything we're used to, but it won't be catastrophic.
    Very good analysis
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  9. #29
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I just figured out where you are going with this and I'm not going there. I don't get my idealogy out of a book but rather through observing human behavior. I apply no political lables to those ideas.

    If you need to label me, "Humanist" would be appropriate.

    I've said it before: If the operator is impaired the machine is not going to run properly. A focus on money? Too late for that. We are a nation of impaired people.
    Anja, I'm beginning to suspect that you are a cynical and bored NT going out of his/her way to reinforce every negative NF stereotype possible.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

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  10. #30
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Anja, I'm beginning to suspect that you are a cynical and bored NT going out of his/her way to reinforce every negative NF stereotype possible.
    Thanks for the compliment, Mycroft. I think.

    Nope. I'm about as INFP as they come. Neither am I cynical. I consider myself a realist of the highest order. I also am sincere in my thoughts and will indicate when I'm fooling around. I don't believe in playing mind games with people. Cuz I kinda like 'em!

    Nearly every thought I have and nearly all my motivations are in regards to the improvement of the unwashed masses. And are nearly always misunderstood. That's so commonly INFP, yeah?

    Here's a funny story my husband told me this morning It happened at the city council meeting this week. A man walked in and complained that his taxes were $27,000!

    Um. What's wrong with this picture? Do we ever become satisfied with enough?

    As far as my politics and my economic ideas go? Go back to Aristotle and his Golden Mean. Don't need any books to know that that applies in all human endeavors.

    Human nature is the problem, has always been the problem and will continue to be the problem because we have no ability as a group to maintain the comfortable medium.

    Why? From my perspective, it is because we focus too much on things and not enough on people.

    Those who think we will go comfortably back to what we had are mistaken. Denial is a dangerous thing. It prevents preparedness. It's with that thought that I ring the alarm bell here.

    I do understand it though. Some of you have been born into chaos and see it as normal. You've always had enough of everything and can't fathom that it would be any other way.

    Oh. The man at the council meeting? So they went and looked up his stuff. He'd been underassessed! Sounds like his taxes will be a little higher than that. I think he'd have done well to be satified with what he had. Heh.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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