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  1. #31
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pholiveira View Post
    Most people are moderates. Where does the GOP win elections with distinctly conservative candidates?
    uh, remember Reagan?

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Don't believe everything you hear in the media. The GOP WINS elections when they run as conservatives. When they try to sound like democrats and make Santa Claus promises, then they lose. It's happened over and over again.
    I know anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence, but I consider myself a conservative and I've voted for exactly one Republican in the last four elections (Bob Dole.) And it's because of this bible-thumping uber-conservatism that barely evinces any trace of what "conservative" used to mean under intellectuals like Barry Goldwater.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  3. #33
    Senior Member FantailedWall's Avatar
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    Hold up. I'm going to be here (a great site with direct quotes, and divided by issue):

    Sarah Palin on the Issues

    ...So I can fully remember why I'm not, and never will be - a Palin supporter. I haven't discussed this for a while, so I have to refresh my memory on her stance towards the issues in order to fully articulate just what exactly bugs the hell outta me.

    (As a side note, if you're interested: Barack Obama on the Issues)

    Though I do support Obama, I'm going to keep this mostly why I could never support Palin. I am at work and do have to focus some of my energy there

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    But the biggest one would be the pro-life issue. Palin's been pretty consistent in opposing abortion, while Obama went so far as to support abortion outside the womb while he was a state senator in Illinois.
    Here's a starting point.

    Quote:
    - Choose life, even if her own daughter were raped.
    - Opposes embryonic stem cell research.


    Her 'pro-life even if raped' goes strongly against my moral belief that such a policy, when strictly enforced, could entirely wreck a girls life and having such an opposition to stem cell research only shows someone who, as a leader, will serve to slow down progress.

    I'm pro-choice. This does not necessarily mean I'm completely pro-abortion, but I do not think the government should have the right to take away the choice. I do think reasonable restrictions can be justified (eg, abortion only legal to a certain stage of the embryo's development) - but even so, whose to say it'll do anything bar force the mother to abort illegally, thus endangering both her life and the child's?

  4. #34
    Senior Member FantailedWall's Avatar
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    Palin opposes stem cell research, physician-assisted suicide, and state health benefits for same-sex partners.

    Ugh. Ugh Ugh Ugh.
    Particularly to the last one - because, you know, gays are abominations not deserving of the same benefits as the rest of mankind.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by FantailedWall View Post
    Her 'pro-life even if raped' goes strongly against my moral belief that such a policy, when strictly enforced, could entirely wreck a girls life and having such an opposition to stem cell research only shows someone who, as a leader, will serve to slow down progress.
    I don't want to derail this into an abortion discussion, but whenever I see this point made I have to jump in. Allowing abortions only in cases of rape is completely illogical. IF abortion is murder, then no circumstances can make it acceptable (excepting a medical decision between the life of the mother and the baby.) Because of this, you can't ask someone to moderate their opinion on what circumstances make killing a baby okay. If abortion is NOT murder and simply a medical procedure, then it should be allowed in all cases.

    If half-measures are suggested to or accepted by either side, their argument falls part. Abortion is logically an all-or nothing thing.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  6. #36
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    If half-measures are suggested to or accepted by either side, their argument falls part. Abortion is logically an all-or nothing thing.
    For anti-abortionists, its a matter of not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Just because one would not make something illegal, does not necessarily equate to moral support. Besides, most polls show a lot of people with conflicting opinions about the whole thing, with tentative opinions residing somewhere in the middle.

  7. #37
    Member pholiveira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    uh, remember Reagan?
    Yes, in the final stages of the Cold War, the US elected a President who was a fiscal conservative following the brand of Goldwater. It's quite a difference from the ideology of the Bible Belt fundamentalists and Sarah Palin nowadays.

  8. #38
    Senior Member FantailedWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I don't want to derail this into an abortion discussion, but whenever I see this point made I have to jump in. Allowing abortions only in cases of rape is completely illogical. IF abortion is murder, then no circumstances can make it acceptable (excepting a medical decision between the life of the mother and the baby.) Because of this, you can't ask someone to moderate their opinion on what circumstances make killing a baby okay. If abortion is NOT murder and simply a medical procedure, then it should be allowed in all cases.

    If half-measures are suggested to or accepted by either side, their argument falls part. Abortion is logically an all-or nothing thing.
    No - you're absolutely right.

    Whilst I don't think a choice like abortion should be taken lightly - done early on, I do not believe it to be murder. And when it comes down to choice between the removal of cells and the possible wrecking of a human girl's life - I'll take the 'lesser evil'. Not just in the instance of rape (which is apparently only something like 1% of abortion cases) but forcing a young woman not emotionally or physiologically ready to bear a child to do so, could potentially destroy her young life. Lets say she were even to put the child up for adoption - the trauma of childbirth alone (to someone who is not ready) and the eventual agony of having to 'give up' your own flesh-and-blood - even if unwanted - can severely detriment on her wellbeing - perhaps permanently.

    From this perspective (viewing the early development stages of the embryo to not yet be definably human), implementation of a strict 'pro-life' law means taking away a womans control over her own body. She should be the one to decide.

    Implementing a law takes away this choice - and even then, only to an extent. Could discourage some - sure. Yet women have been performing 'backyard abortions' for centuries. Technically, the government would only be taking away safe abortion options.

  9. #39
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Of course, you can always ask me anything.

    Like I said, she ran on McCain's platform not her own personal one, so my knowledge of her personal views is more limited, and she doesn't have a long record to look at, but then Obama established this year that a long record is not necessary to get elected.

    But the biggest one would be the pro-life issue. Palin's been pretty consistent in opposing abortion, while Obama went so far as to support abortion outside the womb while he was a state senator in Illinois. Second, Palin is for cutting income taxes, Obama is for raising them. Third, Palin is not in favor of a federal government-run health care system, Obama is. I don't know how strongly Palin believes in scaling back the size and power of the federal government, but if she's in favor of even incremental steps in that direction, then she is loads better than Obama who wants to grow federal government size and power at an even more alarming rate than the Bush administration did.

    Those are just a few things, though pretty important things. I'm sure if I went through a list issue by issue, it would be no contest, even though I'm sure there would be things I disagreed with Palin on.
    Actually Obama is for cutting income taxes for most people--everyone making less than $250k, in fact--which is a vast majority of the country.

    I'm not going to get into the abortion debate--that will never end. Suffice it to say, though, that if abortion is the biggest issue for you, you're probably not taking a very wide range of issues into account and thus may not be able to make a very informed decision.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #40
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FantailedWall View Post
    May I ask what policies in particular of hers you agree with, at least moreso than Obama?
    I'm not answering for Jeffster, but you shouldn't be surprised that a lot of U.S. voters would prefer Palin over Obama--especially when it comes down to one out of two people, as opposed to one out of several choices. And there are tons of people who stick with a party almost regardless of who runs for office for that party. One of the reasons Obama got so many votes was because he was the Democratic Party candidate, and that was a huge bonus right there.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

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