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  1. #41
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Why grasp at straws man?
    Strawman? Your argument is that they are hiding it, etc, when it has been public news since the start. You may disagree with it, and you can have your ideological battle, but the strawman argument was the hiding part.

    I think you underestimate how popular the concept of national healthcare is. A lot in the US want it, to some degree, despite the fear mongering against it.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Strawman? Your argument is that they are hiding it, etc, when it has been public news since the start. You may disagree with it, and you can have your ideological battle, but the strawman argument was the hiding part.

    I think you underestimate how popular the concept of national healthcare is. A lot in the US want it, to some degree, despite the fear mongering against it.
    The majority of Americans don't want universal health care. I don't care if you want it or not, but show me some numbers that actually say the majority of Americans would vote for it or support it. Obama may have run with universal health care as part of his platform, but that doesn't change the ugly fact that it is at being implemented (partially) through something that is being wrongfully touted as a "stimulus bill". It SHOULD be presented as something that the general public can be aware of, not stuck into dark corners that it doesn't belong in in the first place. And why would they bother to change the language of the $600 million being appropriated, yet keep the same stuff in there? They do it because they don't want to face any sort of controversy and roadblocks in their agendas, neither from the house or the general public. I'd say the same thing if it were republicans doing something shady.

  3. #43
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I don't care if you want it or not, but show me some numbers that actually say the majority of Americans would vote for it or support it.
    Parsing the Polls: The Health Care Dilemma - The Fix

    Poll: The Politics Of Health Care, Most Americans Favor Universal Health Care, Give Democrats Edge On Improving System - CBS News

    For example, top two google hits. The first link has some info on the large poll that was done.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Gee gatsby, maybe if everyone KNEW that this SPENDING PACKAGE could be laying the groundwork for "universal health care", then more people would support it! Because unfortunately, it looks as if only 42% of people support it now. Then again, maybe that number took a drop from 52% BECAUSE people learned how much of a sham this is, or maybe even because they read the fine print about the health care plan. Who knows man.

    Rasmussen Reports

  5. #45
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Gee gatsby, maybe if everyone KNEW that this SPENDING PACKAGE could be laying the groundwork for "universal health care", then more people would support it! Because unfortunately, it looks as if only 42% of people support it now. Then again, maybe that number took a drop from 52% BECAUSE people learned how much of a sham this is, or maybe even because they read the fine print about the health care plan. Who knows man.

    Rasmussen Reports
    Or maybe because this spending package includes other things... Either way, you asked about the support for universal healthcare, and there it is.

  6. #46
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Why grasp at straws man? If the politicians want to get an agenda passed, they need to be open about it because they are handling the public's business, not their own. If they want things like universal health care, then fine, let them put it through, but they cannot and should not do it by means that HIDE what they are doing in places they SHOULD NOT be in, all for the purpose of avoiding a possible backlash from the very same people they are supposed to be representing! That's exactly what the problem is in government. Hell, about 3 weeks ago they tried to pass an illegal fee increase here in CA as a way to avoid having to vote on taxes which the general public would not support. They tried to sneak it in under the cover of darkness (the standard procedure for dirt bag politicians), but thankfully there were enough people performing their civic duty of monitoring what the government is doing, and called out the illegal fee increase/tax hike. This same sort of situation is repeated over and over again through the tiers of government, and it is only through the apathy and ignorance of the public that it continues. If you seriously want to argue that methods such as this are a good way to govern, then go ahead and own it ptgatsby. That's your choice...

    Aside from that, mark my words. This is not nearly the last of bailouts and spending bills from the printing presses. Within the next couple months they will spend at least another 700 billion on the banks again. In fact, I believe Obama SAID that he will have to spend trillions more on the banks and creating an agency (the "Bad Bank") to buy up toxic assets and help with bailouts.
    It sounds as though which performers of civic duty you listen to is a conscious choice for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I think you underestimate how popular the concept of national healthcare is. A lot in the US want it, to some degree, despite the fear mongering against it.
    Yeah. I'm not covered by Health Insurance, due to circumstances currently beyond my control.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    It sounds as though which performers of civic duty you listen to is a conscious choice for you.
    Yea, I listen to the ones who aren't blithering dumb asses.

  8. #48
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Yea, I listen to the ones who aren't blithering dumb asses.
    Your litmus test being?
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Your litmus test being?
    Good judgment and common sense. It's worked for humans for thousands of years, up until the past few decades...

  10. #50
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    In a new article, here is just a sampling of what the GOP wants cut.

    On Monday, House Republican leaders put out a list of what they call wasteful provisions in the Senate version of the nearly $900 billion stimulus bill that is being debated:
    The Senate is currently the nearly $900 billion economic stimulus bill.

    The Senate is currently the nearly $900 billion economic stimulus bill.

    $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.

    A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.

    $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

    $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

    $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.

    $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

    $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

    $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

    $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.
    Don't Miss

    * GOP senators draft stimulus alternative

    $125 million for the Washington sewer system.

    $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

    $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

    $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

    $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

    $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

    $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

    $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

    $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

    $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.

    $500 million for state and local fire stations.

    $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.

    $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.

    $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

    $412 million for CDC buildings and property.

    $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

    $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

    $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.

    $850 million for Amtrak.

    $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.

    $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.

    $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.

    $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.
    Comes out to about 19 billion. Of absolute fluff.



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