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  1. #11
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishStallion819 View Post
    Yeah, I heard with the current amount in debt; Every american is like 500,000 dollars in the hole lolz
    About 35,000, IIRC. Can add a few thousand for recent spending, maybe as much as 10k.

  2. #12
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    When a country is deeply in budget debt, trade debt, and public debt, at the same time, what can it do?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #13
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    I tend to think that the economy is probably fucked no matter what.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  4. #14
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I tend to think that the economy is probably fucked no matter what.
    That's the correct answer to my previous post.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #15
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    We need to start producing again. Consumption won't fix any long term problems.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #16
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    We need to start producing again. Consumption won't fix any long term problems.
    Why produce if no one consumes? Or, what can you consume, if you are not producing?

    The catch, which we both know, is that the US didn't produce a tangible marketable good - it "produced" money, which others used as a defacto world currency. Not entirely that - it also produces technology, etc. but enough to be a risk if the world decides not to use it as a reserve.

  7. #17
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    How much money am I getting, Prince Barack?

    STIMULATE MEEEEEEEEEEE!
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  8. #18
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    This is out of the Wall Street Journal

    A 40-Year Wish List - WSJ.com


    A 40-Year Wish List
    You won't believe what's in that stimulus bill.

    * Article

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    "Never let a serious crisis go to waste. What I mean by that is it's an opportunity to do things you couldn't do before."

    So said White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel in November, and Democrats in Congress are certainly taking his advice to heart. The 647-page, $825 billion House legislation is being sold as an economic "stimulus," but now that Democrats have finally released the details we understand Rahm's point much better. This is a political wonder that manages to spend money on just about every pent-up Democratic proposal of the last 40 years.
    [Review & Outlook] AP

    We've looked it over, and even we can't quite believe it. There's $1 billion for Amtrak, the federal railroad that hasn't turned a profit in 40 years; $2 billion for child-care subsidies; $50 million for that great engine of job creation, the National Endowment for the Arts; $400 million for global-warming research and another $2.4 billion for carbon-capture demonstration projects. There's even $650 million on top of the billions already doled out to pay for digital TV conversion coupons.

    In selling the plan, President Obama has said this bill will make "dramatic investments to revive our flagging economy." Well, you be the judge. Some $30 billion, or less than 5% of the spending in the bill, is for fixing bridges or other highway projects. There's another $40 billion for broadband and electric grid development, airports and clean water projects that are arguably worthwhile priorities.
    The Opinion Journal Widget

    Download Opinion Journal's widget and link to the most important editorials and op-eds of the day from your blog or Web page.

    Add the roughly $20 billion for business tax cuts, and by our estimate only $90 billion out of $825 billion, or about 12 cents of every $1, is for something that can plausibly be considered a growth stimulus. And even many of these projects aren't likely to help the economy immediately. As Peter Orszag, the President's new budget director, told Congress a year ago, "even those [public works] that are 'on the shelf' generally cannot be undertaken quickly enough to provide timely stimulus to the economy."
    [Review & Outlook]

    Most of the rest of this project spending will go to such things as renewable energy funding ($8 billion) or mass transit ($6 billion) that have a low or negative return on investment. Most urban transit systems are so badly managed that their fares cover less than half of their costs. However, the people who operate these systems belong to public-employee unions that are campaign contributors to . . . guess which party?

    Here's another lu-lu: Congress wants to spend $600 million more for the federal government to buy new cars. Uncle Sam already spends $3 billion a year on its fleet of 600,000 vehicles. Congress also wants to spend $7 billion for modernizing federal buildings and facilities. The Smithsonian is targeted to receive $150 million; we love the Smithsonian, too, but this is a job creator?

    Another "stimulus" secret is that some $252 billion is for income-transfer payments -- that is, not investments that arguably help everyone, but cash or benefits to individuals for doing nothing at all. There's $81 billion for Medicaid, $36 billion for expanded unemployment benefits, $20 billion for food stamps, and $83 billion for the earned income credit for people who don't pay income tax. While some of that may be justified to help poorer Americans ride out the recession, they aren't job creators.
    In Today's Opinion Journal



    REVIEW & OUTLOOK

    * The Pfizer Drug Warning



    TODAY'S COLUMNISTS

    * Business World: Detroit Takes One (More) for the Team
    Holman W. Jenkins Jr.
    * The Tilting Yard: Toll Roads Are Paved With Bad Intentions
    Thomas Frank



    COMMENTARY

    * Obama Tells Arabia's Despots They're Safe
    Fouad Ajami
    * $646,214 Per Government Job
    Alan Reynolds
    * A $545 Billion Private Stimulus Plan
    Allen Sinai

    As for the promise of accountability, some $54 billion will go to federal programs that the Office of Management and Budget or the Government Accountability Office have already criticized as "ineffective" or unable to pass basic financial audits. These include the Economic Development Administration, the Small Business Administration, the 10 federal job training programs, and many more.

    Oh, and don't forget education, which would get $66 billion more. That's more than the entire Education Department spent a mere 10 years ago and is on top of the doubling under President Bush. Some $6 billion of this will subsidize university building projects. If you think the intention here is to help kids learn, the House declares on page 257 that "No recipient . . . shall use such funds to provide financial assistance to students to attend private elementary or secondary schools." Horrors: Some money might go to nonunion teachers.

    The larger fiscal issue here is whether this spending bonanza will become part of the annual "budget baseline" that Congress uses as the new floor when calculating how much to increase spending the following year, and into the future. Democrats insist that it will not. But it's hard -- no, impossible -- to believe that Congress will cut spending next year on any of these programs from their new, higher levels. The likelihood is that this allegedly emergency spending will become a permanent addition to federal outlays -- increasing pressure for tax increases in the bargain. Any Blue Dog Democrat who votes for this ought to turn in his "deficit hawk" credentials.

    This is supposed to be a new era of bipartisanship, but this bill was written based on the wish list of every living -- or dead -- Democratic interest group. As Speaker Nancy Pelosi put it, "We won the election. We wrote the bill." So they did. Republicans should let them take all of the credit.

  9. #19
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    When a country is deeply in budget debt, trade debt, and public debt, at the same time, what can it do?
    Stop going into more debt, perhaps? That would be a good start.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  10. #20
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    Something I wrote somewhere else:

    Some people think about the economy like the hull of a ship. Failing companies are holes which need to be plugged, and unless they are bailed out or stimulated, the entire ship will eventually sink. But this is nonsense. By way of irresponsible monetary and fiscal policy over about twenty years, the U.S. Government has undermined the hull's integrity. The hull is now made of sponge, water is seeping in everywhere, and pressing down to stop it in one place will just redirect it to come out somewhere else.

    Prices are messengers about economic realities. When reality changes, prices change to convey a new message. But this relation does not work in both directions: changing prices does not create a corresponding change in reality. When the government stresses the importance of "stabilising prices" or whatever, they are trying to prevent prices from signalling a change about the real economic situation. Thus the discrepancy between reality and prices keeps growing, and creates an even greater misallocation of resources. By way of bailouts and stimulii (better referred to as depressents), politicians and bereaucrats are sending the false signal to redirect resources toward wasteful public spending and failing industries. It is the economic equivalent of going insane, as our perception of reality grows ever more distant from the actuality.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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