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  1. #81
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Play nicely, guys.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Your false dichotomies are full of fail, too. You can't take a true statement and piggyback a whole load of BS on top. Most people have the ability to smell it.

    I'm not going to try to convince you though, it's a waste of time.
    The typical emotive response when one's perception of reality is perceived as threat by the other.

  3. #83
    Summer laintpe's Avatar
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    (This isn't directed at you, Risen.)

    I'm adamantly against censorship, but someone on here seems to have a pattern of offering "destructive" criticism... and the childlike bitching of it all is getting irksome. Please, stick to examples and facts before thrusting insults and negative statements that scream "I'm narrow minded!" around.
    [B]Ti=Ne>Ni>Fe>Te=Fi>Si>Se

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap
    Quote Originally Posted by laintpe
    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap
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  4. #84
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laintpe View Post
    (This isn't directed at you, Risen.)

    I'm adamantly against censorship, but someone on here seems to have a pattern of offering "destructive" criticism... and the childlike bitching of it all is getting irksome. Please, stick to examples and facts before thrusting insults and negative statements that scream "I'm narrow minded!" around.
    If you're not gunna name-drop, can we at least get a hint of who you're talking about?

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I don't think anyone would contest your claim that what you call a problem--children out of wedlock--is more prevalent in poor communities. What I think people might contest is that you SAY this and seem to OPPOSE education and increased availability of birth control options.

    You seem to not consider single mothers and their children to be "families," though, and that's a little weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Are you a high school teacher at a low income school? Your complaints sound familiar. I have said and thought the same things. But you can't spend any amount of meaningful time at a low income high school and not ALSO know that these kids did not just appear in a vacuum.

    It's a spiraling problem. Much of the time, in my experience, those kids of which you speak are the product of teen pregnancies themselves. Their parents are not adults themselves in the formative years where the most important learning happens. Frequently, their parents do not have high school diplomas themselves (due to a variety of things including pregnancies), so they don't have many people in their lives to look at and see that education = greater opportunities for success. There's SO MUCH going on here. Birth control on its own is NOT the only solution, for sure.

    I taught at a school that had a phenomenal girl's basketball team with a fabulous and caring coach. The coach helped four girls get athletic scholarships to college. After their first semester of college, three of those girls were pregnant, lost their athletic scholarships, and dropped out. Now - there seems to be a certain element of self-sabatoge present there. But it is definitely the case that those girls' pregnancies halted their education and progress.
    Laine, I completely agree. the problem here is that there is a lack of discipline and social order exerted by parents and society in general, applying to both performance in school and birth rates. The problems stem from the same source. Thus, because nobody is making responsible decisions themselves, the government then steps in to apply it haphazard fixes.

    My problem with Pelosi and her proposal (and the many other lefty proposals like it) is that aside from being included in a spending package it should've never been in, and for a said purpose (stimulating the economy) that is completely false, it would be spending tax payer money toward a government program that would make NO DIFFERENCE. The solution to higher unplanned birth rates in lower income communities isn't through government supplying free contraception and more "education". If that worked, the birth rates would be going down because they have been pushing crap like this for YEARS already. This is a social problem, and the government can't just spend money and expect it to be a solution. Providing free contraception would not alleviate the problem. I am still waiting for someone to prove to me one instance where someone just can't afford a condom, and thus ended up creating a baby because they had no money left for preventative measures. It's BS.

    As for family planning, in the surprise birth situations we are focusing on, it's between people who never had any sort of "family" in the first place. It's about two people who hook up, and accidentally create a child, which then faces either being born to a mother who may:

    1. Abort the child, as likely payed for by the government and tax payer money.
    2. Keep the child and marry the father to form a nuclear family arrangement.
    3. Keep the child and face raising it alone
    4. Keep the child and raise it with the presence of the original father, in an unmarried arrangement.
    5. Put the child up for adoption.

    These days, the marriage structure usually comes as the last option, which one could argue is not conducive to a healthy society, but I don't want to enter that debate. The point is, I don't know anyone that would change their ways just because government uses more of everyone's money to provide contraception. I used to live in IL, in a very rural community, where people multiply like rabbits. I will tell you right now, the people in those communities just don't care as much about preventing unplanned births or getting married to form stable families if they do have an unplanned child. They are NOT too poor to afford contraception, they just fool around and end up not bothering to use it. That is their fault, and the trend continues because that is in the mentality of the community itself. Now you could argue that government education plans might curb this trend, but since it is already done through sex ed initiatives in schools, would there REALLY be any difference? I don't think so, especially if it were aimed at adults who will go on with what they were taught and grew up with.

  6. #86
    Summer laintpe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    There's SO MUCH going on here. Birth control on its own is NOT the only solution, for sure.
    yes

    I taught at a school that had a phenomenal girl's basketball team with a fabulous and caring coach. The coach helped four girls get athletic scholarships to college. After their first semester of college, three of those girls were pregnant, lost their athletic scholarships, and dropped out. Now - there seems to be a certain element of self-sabotage present there. But it is definitely the case that those girls' pregnancies halted their education and progress.
    By college... wouldn't you say that they have had more than enough exposure to birth control information as well as access to contraceptives? One of my campuses had "sex parties"... (not what it sounds like)... they would hand out condoms, pamphlets, etc. and I know that wasn't an event exclusive to my school. What I don't understand... is that even in supposedly "more informed, upper class, we-put-education-on-the-highest-pedestal" families, I've known girls who have become pregnant.. and the reason for both of those cases has been "We just didn't feel like using a condom"... then I ask about the pill and the response is "The pill makes me nauseous". The risks didn't seem to register with them.
    [B]Ti=Ne>Ni>Fe>Te=Fi>Si>Se

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap
    Quote Originally Posted by laintpe
    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap
    Ideally I'll be the woman

  7. #87
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laintpe View Post
    yes



    By college... wouldn't you say that they have had more than enough exposure to birth control information as well as access to contraceptives? One of my campuses had "sex parties"... (not what it sounds like)... they would hand out condoms, pamphlets, etc. and I know that wasn't an event exclusive to my school. What I don't understand... is that even in supposedly "more informed, upper class, we-put-education-on-the-highest-pedestal" families, I've known girls who have become pregnant.. and the reason for both of those cases has been "We just didn't feel like using a condom"... then I ask about the pill and the response is "The pill makes me nauseous". The risks didn't seem to register with them.
    In North Carolina, we can't teach about anything but abstinence (and recall - I teach high school, and those girls spent less than one semester on a college campus). I am serious as a heart attack here - we had "Abstinence Week" at school several years in a row. I was given a button that said "I'm worth the wait" and a ribbon that said "Abstinence: the only way." No. I do not believe that enough education happens. Misunderstandings about birth control abound.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  8. #88
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    In North Carolina, we can't teach about anything but abstinence (and recall - I teach high school, and those girls spent less than one semester on a college campus). I am serious as a heart attack here - we had "Abstinence Week" at school several years in a row. I was given a button that said "I'm worth the wait" and a ribbon that said "Abstinence: the only way." No. I do not believe that enough education happens. Misunderstandings about birth control abound.
    Who mandated that.. local govt? The school? Parents? The State? (I'm shocked)

  9. #89
    Summer laintpe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    In North Carolina, we can't teach about anything but abstinence (and recall - I teach high school, and those girls spent less than one semester on a college campus). I am serious as a heart attack here - we had "Abstinence Week" at school several years in a row. I was given a button that said "I'm worth the wait" and a ribbon that said "Abstinence: the only way." No. I do not believe that enough education happens. Misunderstandings about birth control abound.
    Well, that explains it. I live in California... we're on an entirely different wavelength.
    [B]Ti=Ne>Ni>Fe>Te=Fi>Si>Se

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap
    Quote Originally Posted by laintpe
    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap
    Ideally I'll be the woman

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    In North Carolina, we can't teach about anything but abstinence (and recall - I teach high school, and those girls spent less than one semester on a college campus). I am serious as a heart attack here - we had "Abstinence Week" at school several years in a row. I was given a button that said "I'm worth the wait" and a ribbon that said "Abstinence: the only way." No. I do not believe that enough education happens. Misunderstandings about birth control abound.
    Why does this seem bad to you? Not having sex is the surest way not to make babies, is it not? Did it at least work well in your community? The only part I'd find to be counterproductive is if they didn't at least cover the topic of contraception. However, advocating abstinence to young impressionable minds would be in some conflict when delivering the message of "We ask you not to have sex, BUT IF YOU DO, make sure you use a condom." It's a slightly mixed message as you tell kids to just not have sex, but then go and tell them what to do if they do have sex :/. Either way, I'd rather kids know what they need to about safe sex. I honestly don't see how this abstinence week would be any worse than having "Sex Ed Day" as they do in CA schools (or at least the San Diego school district).

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