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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    lol, the first tenent of Greenism, blame population numbers for all the mess in the world.

    How will having fewer consumers help a consumer based society?
    I'm sure it says somewhere in the "laws of physics" that fewer people buying things, in an economy based upon people buying things, will grow the economy (you know, the one that is based on people buying things, by having fewer people here to buy things). It's probably called "Nimrod's 3rd law of Economic Funny Physics". Eh, I'll just let Hopeseed answer since he/she knows the "physics" involved.

  2. #112
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Just to comment on this part, any plans Russia had on suppressing the population growth is certainly backfiring on them. Their population growth is going into the negative, something I've heard the leaders over there are quite concerned about.
    Yeah, your right that causing the death of millions of people is not only bad morally but also from a economic point of view. Russia considers its declining population the biggest problem it faces today, closely followed by the US missile defence system. I remember hearing they have a 10-year national programme in place to try to reverse the situation of the former, I'm unsure about the latter, but maybe the two policies are linked.



    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Falcarius,

    Your objections betray the fact that you do not understand my argument. Just keep thinking about it.
    I am willing to accept I could have misunderstood your argument, you did not answer any of questions other than to repeat the original statement I disagreed with, so it is hard to understand your exact argument; either way it does not make much sense to me.

    As far as I can tell, to the best of my knowledge, from what you have said in this thread your argument is; you believe population growth is a positive thing economically unless the economy happens to be a planned economy, in which case it becomes a burden as you consider governments to be of an inherently incompetent disposition. As for your economic opinion of Ed Gein, I do admit you have totally bewildered me, but I do very much hope we at least agree on him.

    Anyway, nothing personal Lee, but I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject as there is clearly a big difference between the two of us; so until another debate.
    Last edited by Falcarius; 02-05-2009 at 10:26 AM. Reason: grammer
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  3. #113
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    You know, I agree with MacGuffin; this thread sucks.

    One star.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  4. #114
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Risen, how come the only kind of birth control you mention is condoms? Condoms, when used, are effective, but they're a nuisance, and when people sleep together in the same bed, they tend to bump into each other in the night and stuff happens. Condoms are not good birth control for people who sleep in the same bed and are having regular sex. And a lot of men won't use them.

    Birth control as in the pill, depoprovera, or even the diaphragm takes a visit to a gynecologist, which runs about $150 - $200, plus another at least $30 a month for a pill pack (that's if you have insurance -- I don't know how much they are without insurance). For women who can't remember to take their pills, there is the birth control patch or the Nuvaring, but again, we're talking doctor visit and prescription.

    Reliable birth control is expensive.

    And I don't see how you can argue with the fact that we're running out of space to put people.

    Birth control is a good thing.

  5. #115
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    And I don't see how you can argue with the fact that we're running out of space to put people.
    Because we aren't. The only reason this is even on topic is due to externalities that aren't being accounted for, such as environmental impact.

    We are too short sighted to have our population grow. There is room for, I would guesstimate, multiple times the world's current population. We just can't handle 10% of the world's population throwing a hell of a party at the same time.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Risen, how come the only kind of birth control you mention is condoms? Condoms, when used, are effective, but they're a nuisance, and when people sleep together in the same bed, they tend to bump into each other in the night and stuff happens. Condoms are not good birth control for people who sleep in the same bed and are having regular sex. And a lot of men won't use them.

    Birth control as in the pill, depoprovera, or even the diaphragm takes a visit to a gynecologist, which runs about $150 - $200, plus another at least $30 a month for a pill pack (that's if you have insurance -- I don't know how much they are without insurance). For women who can't remember to take their pills, there is the birth control patch or the Nuvaring, but again, we're talking doctor visit and prescription.

    Reliable birth control is expensive.

    Birth control is a good thing.
    The only reason I even mentioned condoms specifically was in response to someone who had brought up condoms (specifically). Otherwise I've been saying contraception in general.

    And I don't see how you can argue with the fact that we're running out of space to put people. And if we're talking about methods that cost over $150 in bills I sure as hell don't want my money going to pay for that just so they can have sex wrapper free without getting knocked up. The system cannot be made to compensate for every stupid decision people make, which is the folly that is repeated time and time again, bringing us to where we are today with the bailouts, failing mortgages, and foreclosures. It was, again, precipitated by the government stepping in and telling banks to give loans to people who obviously couldn't handle them. "Oh, but we need to do everything we can to keep people from having unwanted babies!" No. That is not my responsibility, it is not the government's responsibility, it is THEIR responsibility. Yea, it may or may not become a weight on us all when people make bad choices, but that whole aspect can be minimized by not having the government burden everyone else to either try in vain to keep them from doing it with our tax dollars, or using our tax dollars to cover the costs of their ill decision (having children they can't afford themselves). Such methods are wholly unsustainable. People need to take more god damn responsibility for their actions, and that will NEVER happen as a society if the government keeps stepping in to try and fix it themselves (and it always fails), infringing upon our liberties in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Because we aren't. The only reason this is even on topic is due to externalities that aren't being accounted for, such as environmental impact.

    We are too short sighted to have our population grow. There is room for, I would guesstimate, multiple times the world's current population. We just can't handle 10% of the world's population throwing a hell of a party at the same time.
    Agreed. I'm getting quite tired of this "the population is too big" fallacy. It's almost as bad as global warming, which isn't surprising since both of these ideas stem from the same environmentalist excrement.

  7. #117
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    You know, in essence I agree with you. I think people should be more responsible and should take care of themselves and their kids. However. Some people can't and won't, I mean, that's just the fact of the matter, would you agree? So what do we do with all those kids who weren't planned, whose births might even be resented, who aren't wanted or cared for, whose parents can't really feed them ... what do we do with them? We have to contribute to their welfare, don't we?

    We are going to pay one way or another.

    So why not pay for birth control and birth control education? If every child is a wanted child, whose parents made a conscious decision to be parents and have some commitment to their role, wouldn't that be better than people just randomly conceiving with zero intent, ability or resources to parent?

  8. #118
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    LOL, want to improve the US economy? Quit sending our jobs overseas.

  9. #119
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Just to comment on this part, any plans Russia had on suppressing the population growth is certainly backfiring on them. Their population growth is going into the negative, something I've heard the leaders over there are quite concerned about.
    Russia has been experiencing negative rates of natural increase for quite a while now; they're losing close to a million people a year, and even that rate has been artificially reduced by massive immigration from post-Soviet states. Russia is pretty much fucked, as is much of Europe (though the latter's decline will be much less precipitous due to their low death rates).

  10. #120
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    LOL, want to improve the US economy? Quit sending our jobs overseas.
    Actually, the "buy American" provisions in the "stimulus" package are perhaps the most self-defeating aspects of it; it will make production much more expensive, hurting the production capacity of American businesses and therefore their ability to compete internationally, not to mention setting off trade wars is just about the worst thing you can do during a global recession. To his credit, Obama himself has noted this; the political battles on this issue, both within and between the different branches of government, will be interesting.

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