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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopeseed View Post
    Yeah, I was trying be subversive. But it really was a good question. 010101010 or whatever, may not be gay, but really think about it, why does someone who is not gay care? This seems like it's a big deal to this person...It's good to question why certain things bother us. I'm not gay but it bothers me that people want everyone to think, believe and act the same way. Not just the gay issue but any issue about freedom. If something does not hurt another person people should let it be. So child abuse is quite different than two gay adults...give me a break, so lame.
    On the subject of behavior, heterosexuals do benefit from the legal system as a whole. Behavior is taken into consideration. As it should. I think you viewed Booya's comment more sentimentally than it was meant to be. Yet, some behaviors are protected under law, while others are not.


    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    My point was that opponents of "hate crimes" legislation would be forced to oppose "omnibus" gay rights efforts that included both gay marriage and "hate crimes" legislation as a whole package, as well as politicians that seek to implement both policies more or less simultaneously. Linking the two together generates more political opposition than pursuing gay marriage separately.

    As for the rest, fair enough-the recent thread split should cut down on misunderstandings.
    The thread was about overall issues in the first place. I wasn't linking hate crimes with gay marriage. You perceived the conversation that way.

  2. #52
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    Yeah, me too. So?
    Legal benefits that they do not receive, that you can.

    That's the point. Seems obvious.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    Yeah, me too. So?
    You also have the option of receiving many legal benefits, if you so choose, based on your behavior as a heterosexual. While an entire group of people are excluded without empirical reason.

  4. #54
    Member *Strictly_The_Facts*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    Yeah, me too. So?
    ďIf one does not understand a person, one tends to regard him as a fool. -Carl Gustav Jung *I-74* *N-53* *T-95* *J-89*

  5. #55
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    There are certain statutes that say that when a married person dies, their estate avoids probate and goes to their spouse. Domestic partners aren't included, so if you're in a domestic partnership with another person and they die without a will, their estate goes through the probate system and ends up getting taxed a lot more than if you avoided the system. As well as:

    Automatic application of most spousal rights such as not needing to draft a separate medical health care power of attorney or advanced medical directives
    Rent control rights
    Rights in personal injury cases
    Family Medical Leave Act (FMLA) rights
    Standing in wrongful death actions when a partner is killed through someone else's negligence
    One of the worst "missing" rights to me always seem to me that of a widow's pension for gay couples.

    Heterosexual couple live together 50 years both as workers (one major earner) and then as retirees. The retired major earner dies, and the surviving spouse gets a (probably a bit reduced) pension to live on for the remaining days.

    Exactly the same situation, but with both partners being the same sex. This time the surviving partner is usually left with nothing.

    It seems so unfair, a lifelong commitment and the law doesn't protect them.

    (it does in the UK, but only recently)

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopeseed View Post
    Yeah, I was trying be subversive. But it really was a good question. 010101010 or whatever, may not be gay, but really think about it, why does someone who is not gay care? This seems like it's a big deal to this person...It's good to question why certain things bother us. I'm not gay but it bothers me that people want everyone to think, believe and act the same way. Not just the gay issue but any issue about freedom. If something does not hurt another person people should let it be. So child abuse is quite different than two gay adults...give me a break, so lame.
    Well I totally agree with you. If you, for example were president and bombed another country, why the hell should I care? As long as I'm living good in the U.S., that's all that matters. What gives me the right to judge you if you beat up homosexuals because you loathe them?

    Ultimately, I want you to retain your individualism. Because that is a sovereign, inalienable right that we all have. This is what is most important.

  7. #57
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    So can anyone think of a good reason for why homosexual couples would be robbed of the same rights as heterosexual ones? I encourage you too, because I can't. I assume that I am not alone here.

  8. #58
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Proposition 8 and "hate crimes" legislation are entirely separate issues; if you insist on equating the two, you will face opposition from the opponents of either.
    Wait. There are people who oppose the former, but not the latter?
    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    God, this is tiresome. They DO have the same rights to the same behavior as straight people. You can't redefine the behavior allowed by a right and call it discrimination. It's no different from a pedophile kidnapping a child and then complaining that people want to take away his right to adopt.
    Now there's an inflammatory remark.
    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    (just like gay people can still get married to a member of the opposite sex and tax laws apply to them as well)
    Yeah, well, that's not good enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    I still don't see how that is discrimination against individuals.
    A marriage is an agreement between two individuals.

    booyalab, what you are saying is logical, but incomplete.

    Straight individuals and gay individuals do have the same rights and benefits when it comes to marriage, but a gay individual would obviously gain no more satisfaction from a heterosexual marriage than a straight individual would gain from a homosexual union. Our pursuit of happiness is categorically discouraged.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    A marriage is an agreement between two individuals.

    booyalab, what you are saying is logical, but incomplete.

    Straight individuals and gay individuals do have the same rights and benefits when it comes to marriage, but a gay individual will obviously not gain anymore satisfaction from a heterosexual marriage than a straight individual would gain satisfaction from a homosexual union. Our pursuit of happiness is categorically discouraged.
    Precisely, the premise of heterosexual marriage for a homosexual is valid, but not traditionally sound or productive at all. That is unless, marriage is not about love and sexual preference. However, if you took sexual preference out of the loop it is possible to love someone of the opposite sex in spite of being homosexual. Then again, if you took sexual preference out of the loop the whole argument would be circular, given that your argument is about homosexual, not heterosexual rights.

    So yea booyalab might be right if homosexuals were forced into heterosexual marriages. But this is not practical at all, and therefore wrong.

  10. #60
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Straight individuals and gay individuals do have the same rights and benefits when it comes to marriage, but a gay individual will obviously not gain anymore satisfaction from a heterosexual marriage than a straight individual would gain satisfaction from a homosexual union.
    But the absence of a legal privilege (the scarcity of laws recognizing or contemplating same-sex marriage) is not at all like Constitutional infringements (like miscegenation laws, which contravened the 14th Amendment because there already existed legal protection for all male-female couples).

    You and other advocates have a simple remedy via the legislature or plebiscite. Convince a majority, and what you want is rightfully enforceable.

    That goes for all of you here. Removing emotion and obscure talk about "rights" from the equation makes your cause a lot of work to both defend and realize. So ask yourself: are you serious? If so, work towards this if you believe it is worth it.

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