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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ...sez an INTJ. Which really says more about said INTJ.
    Okay, this I didn't understand. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

  2. #12
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I only care about it in an abstract way unless I observe it (empathy is a normal human thing that is frequently observed even in infants, actually, some animals even show signs of it) or if someone I care about is hurt. If that is phony, I can live with that. I knew Toonia lives near there and is sometimes in the city, so I felt concern about her. I couldn't remember who else was around there, though.
    I live somewhat nearby...and I know people who live about a mile away from there.
    We are not poets
    We have no right to make amendments

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Okay, this I didn't understand. Perhaps you can enlighten me?
    The fact you are unable to divorce your own bias from your observations says more about you than what you think is the "truth".

    I don't really sympathize either. It bothers me and is something I would not engage in. Most public displays of emotion do that to me too. I quickly try to disengage from those scenes.

    But those people that do those things; I don't view as "phony". That is who they are.

  4. #14
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    The fact you are unable to divorce your own bias from your observations says more about you than what you think is the "truth".

    I don't really sympathize either. It bothers me and is something I would not engage in. Most public displays of emotion do that to me too. I quickly try to disengage from those scenes.

    But those people that do those things; I don't view as "phony". That is who they are.
    Even as an F i can get uncomfortable with certain types of mass hype, but there is use in it. Sometimes when a whole community gets emotional about something they are inspired to work to fix a problem. Whether their emotion was real or not doesn't matter so much if the river get sandbagged, the bridge get fixed, or they find the lost puppy.

    Why not care about people you haven't met? Isn't it logical? If you care for one person on the basis of them being a human being then why not care for unknown people on that same basis? I think of it as potential compassion. The mindset is in place so that if the person is dealt with irl, there is reason to act to benefit them. The further we think outside the context of ourselves, the more reason we have to value unknown people. Seeing unknown people as unreal is not strictly rational because they are real. The truth is they are different from imaginary characters. That's a measurable fact.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #15
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varelse View Post
    I live somewhat nearby...and I know people who live about a mile away from there.
    That is scary. I'm glad you're okay.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Even as an F i can get uncomfortable with certain types of mass hype, but there is use in it. Sometimes when a whole community gets emotional about something they are inspired to work to fix a problem. Whether their emotion was real or not doesn't matter so much if the river get sandbagged, the bridge get fixed, or they find the lost puppy.

    Why not care about people you haven't met? Isn't it logical? If you care for one person on the basis of them being a human being then why not care for unknown people on that same basis? I think of it as potential compassion. The mindset is in place so that if the person is dealt with irl, there is reason to act to benefit them. The further we think outside the context of ourselves, the more reason we have to value unknown people. Seeing unknown people as unreal is not strictly rational because they are real. The truth is they are different from imaginary characters. That's a measurable fact.
    I think it's more logical to care about yourself, and protect your own existence.

    And my philosophy is that if I don't see it first-hand, it is merely an idea implanted in my head.

    I've seen people get shot and killed before, so don't think I haven't been around violence and death. But when I was exposed to it, it didn't really affect me. In fact, I was a bit underwhelmed because it wasn't as interesting as they make it look in the movies.

  7. #17
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    I think it's more logical to care about yourself, and protect your own existence.

    And my philosophy is that if I don't see it first-hand, it is merely an idea implanted in my head.

    I've seen people get shot and killed before, so don't think I haven't been around violence and death. But when I was exposed to it, it didn't really affect me. In fact, I was a bit underwhelmed because it wasn't as interesting as they make it look in the movies.
    But the thing you might want to consider is that you are an atypical person. Just because something doesn't effect you does not mean that it doesn't effect another person.

    On a physical level, for example, I have the gene variation that lacks the ability to taste certain bitter flavors. We were studying very basic genetics in my high school biology class and one of the things we did was try out the bitter paper thing. Everyone in the class was grimacing at the bitterness of it and I tasted nothing but paper. Does my inability to taste what the rest of the class was tasting mean that the rest of the class was faking? The odds are pretty slim.

    You, for whatever reason, have a lack of normal human empathy. Empathy may not be something you feel and you may consider it illogical (I disagree, but I think we've already had that discussion), but your absence of this trait does not mean that it does not legitimately exist in other human beings.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #18
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    I think it's more logical to care about yourself, and protect your own existence.
    Except that our own survival depends on the well being of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    And my philosophy is that if I don't see it first-hand, it is merely an idea implanted in my head.
    So at night does the sun cease to exist? Does it become merely an idea? Do other countries exist if you never visit them? It is important that some people weigh the external world more equally because far removed people and events impact the individual in a very real tangible way, even if they are unaware of this fact.

    edit: Also, one of the reasons human beings have been able to survive as a species despite our exceedingly wimpy physiques is that we can think abstractly and comprehend long range consequences. It is also because we can work cooperatively. The isolated view of survival could be described as a rationalization for not knowing how to benefit from a more cooperative model?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Except that our own survival depends on the well being of others.
    But does my own survival depend on the well-being of someone I have nothing to do with? My survival may depend on how useful people are, but not on the person him/herself.

    So at night does the sun cease to exist? Does it become merely an idea? Do other countries exist if you never visit them? It is important that some people weigh the external world more equally because far removed people and events impact the individual in a very real tangible way, even if they are unaware of this fact.
    Something like that, yes. It's called solipsism.

    edit: Also, one of the reasons human beings have been able to survive as a species despite our exceedingly wimpy physiques is that we can think abstractly and comprehend long range consequences. It is also because we can work cooperatively. The isolated view of survival could be described as a rationalization for not knowing how to benefit from a more cooperative model?
    Well, I don't think I have the inability to think abstractly. Or else, how could I think outside of the box? And what does that have to do with empathy?

    Though I don't have the same lack of empathy when it comes to animals. I get pissed when I hear people killing dogs, but when they kill babies or children, I don't mind, because children annoy me even more than adults.

  10. #20
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    It's the same deal here. I can't really sympathize because it isn't happening to me. When you say you do sympathize with things like that, you're just making yourself seem more phony. Not trying to shake things up or anything, but just stating the truth.
    Technically true. But if you care about a person who is experiencing grief because of such an incident, you can feel sad that the other person is experiencing pain. However, I must admit that I feel virtually nothing for this particular incident since I don't know anyone who was affected (I'm ashamed that I don't feel anything since everyone else seems so broken up, but alas...).

    Although I am thinking about whether inspecting bridges once a year is sufficient, and whether the government is wasting money on "pork barrel" projects rather than investing it in better inspectors and more frequent inspections. I'm also wondering whether it was soundly constructed, or whether they just went with the cheapest bid like most local governments.

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