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  1. #31
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    What power limitations? He probably obtained more power than any President in US history as a result of 9-11. The problem was he wasn't held accountable for it and his administration was incredibly secretive about its actions.
    This is incorrect. Some of our "greatest" presidents usurped more power than Bush, like Lincoln and FDR.

    There is already a system in place to hold him accountable. What changes would you propose?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #32
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is incorrect. Some of our "greatest" presidents usurped more power than Bush, like Lincoln and FDR.

    There is already a system in place to hold him accountable. What changes would you propose?
    How many people did Lincoln and FDR waterboard? Did they keep prisoners in a foreign land for inordinate amounts of time so they could get around giving them a fair trial?

    It's clear that he cherry picked intelligence in order to make a case to go to war with Iraq. Although that might not be a new thing for a president to do, I wouldn't mind having some measures in place to keep that from happening again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    How many people did Lincoln and FDR waterboard? Did they keep prisoners in a foreign land for inordinate amounts of time so they could get around giving them a fair trial?
    Lincoln suspended habeas corpus for American citizens and FDR put Japanese Americans in internment camps. And that's just to start. Bush was nothing compared to those two.

    It's clear that he cherry picked intelligence in order to make a case to go to war with Iraq. Although that might not be a new thing for a president to do, I wouldn't mind having some measures in place to keep that from happening again.
    Yeah, we already have something in place to stop that, it's called Congress.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #34
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Nice ideology, but I don't see anything to support your ideas. What makes it clear that it is an ideology is that you treat it as if it is inherently apparent and provide nothing to support your assertions, treating them like facts or axioms. I have no personal interest in unsubstantiated political ideologies, only in technical solutions.
    Here's some support: http://economics.gmu.edu/working/WPE_98/98_07.pdf and http://www.ppe-journal.org/Gaus/Gaus...Complexity.pdf

    Now how about you provide some support in favor of your assertion that "complex problems require [planned] complex solutions"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Lincoln suspended habeas corpus for American citizens and FDR put Japanese Americans in internment camps. And that's just to start. Bush was nothing compared to those two.
    Don't forget about Woodrow Wilson and John Adams.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Don't forget about Woodrow Wilson and John Adams.
    I considered mentioning Wilson, but yeah, there are numerous incidents of this sort of thing happening throughout American history. I'm no Bush fan, but people who want to write him off as the worst "this" or the worst "that" just don't know history. It's happened with "good" men and "bad" men. And they all think they would have done a better job if they just had more power.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Here's some support: http://economics.gmu.edu/working/WPE_98/98_07.pdf and http://www.ppe-journal.org/Gaus/Gaus...Complexity.pdf

    Now how about you provide some support in favor of your assertion that "complex problems require [planned] complex solutions"?



    Don't forget about Woodrow Wilson and John Adams.
    Thank you for saying it before I did . Woodrow Wilson had freaking political prisoners. I know some people who have read about him much more thoroughly than I, and they say some of the things his presidency was downright scary. Aside from jailing people that spoke out against him, I know it was him and others of like mind that kick started the progressive era.

    Many other things in this thread I'm just too tired to address at the moment...

  7. #37
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I know history. I know all the crap that people have been mentioning about our past presidents. I'd still consider Bush a good candidate for throwing somewhere in the bottom five, if not the bottom.

    You see, I concern myself with results.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #38
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    So you're okay with the president ignoring the constitution as long as his agenda aligns with your own.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #39
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You see, I concern myself with results.
    1.) Under your criteria, do said results have to be the result of, or exacerbated by, actual Executive policies?

    2.) Either way, what combination of results lead you to place GWB as one of the five worst presidents in history? I can think of many periods of American history which were more fucked up than now...

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I have no personal interest in unsubstantiated political ideologies, only in technical solutions.
    Efficiency is a means to an end, not an end in itself. And in order to establish those proper ends, you need to have first principles.

    Who gives a crap if the government is big or small? Let's have a government that works!
    Read above.


    What needs to be done is to make the government transparent and accountable, and once again make it into an institution by the people and for the people.
    Ok, but you can't really have that with a big government, which by default is runned by a distant and unaccountable bureaucracy. You can only have that under "small government" or better yet under the principle of Subsidiarity, where power is cocentrated at the lowest levels possible.

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