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  1. #21
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Yes, I'll be picking this speech apart after I get some rest. Fascinating how for one fleeting moment he invokes the founders and their principles (reminds me of a certain thread...), then immediately goes into the socialist big government rhetoric; which is OPPOSITE the former, for the multitude of you out there who don't know diddly squat about this stuff.
    That was my favorite part. Who gives a crap if the government is big or small? Let's have a government that works!

    Ever since the Cold War, people have been afraid of the government, equating it to a beast that needs to be starved. What needs to be done is to make the government transparent and accountable, and once again make it into an institution by the people and for the people.

    The founders had a brilliant plan, but the founders also recognized that future generations would need to do more than just protect it; they would also need to improve upon it. Obama clearly recognizes where our political system is broken and he plans to use technical solutions to fix them. These arguments of the big, bad "socialism" are simply an archaic reference to a cold past and have little relevance to this era.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Who gives a crap if the government is big or small? Let's have a government that works!

    Ever since the Cold War, people have been afraid of the government, equating it to a beast that needs to be starved. What needs to be done is to make the government transparent and accountable, and once again make it into an institution by the people and for the people.

    The founders had a brilliant plan, but the founders also recognized that future generations would need to do more than just protect it; they would also need to improve upon it. Obama clearly recognizes where our political system is broken and he plans to use technical solutions to fix them. These arguments of the big, bad "socialism" are simply an archaic reference to a cold past and have little relevance to this era.
    Sigh. When I hear this I either want to call the people who say such things ignoramus's of the highest, unfathomable caliber, or bit my tongue until it swells because I don't want to waste any energy repeating the facts that blow such bat guano ideas out of the realm of "I believe it, therefore it must be reality," and into "This is a bunch of bat guano that only exists in the imaginations of people whose brains can only operate at 1hz". I'll just choose the latter and bite it...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Sigh. When I hear this I either want to call the people who say such things ignoramus's of the highest, unfathomable caliber, or bit my tongue until it swells because I don't want to waste any energy repeating the facts that blow such bat guano ideas out of the realm of "I believe it, therefore it must be reality," and into "This is a bunch of bat guano that only exists in the imaginations of people whose brains can only operate at 1hz". I'll just choose the latter and bite it...
    Forgive me for not being a bitter cynic.

    After all, you have at least 4 years to prove how wrong I am.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    As always, the problem with having "good" government is that it requires "good" people to hold positions of power. That cannot be guaranteed. Look at the last 8 years. Look at people like Blagojevich. The more power government has, the more enticing it is for unscrupulous individuals to try to use that power for personal gain. My belief is that no amount of safeguards will ever significantly reduce corruption, so the best course of action is to limit their power, not give them more and hope they're "good" people.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #25
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    My belief is that no amount of safeguards will ever significantly reduce corruption, so the best course of action is to limit their power, not give them more and hope they're "good" people.
    +1.

    At some point, we have to dissolve the philosophy of "good" as it applies to real world practice. There's no reliable contextual link between theoretical ideals and sober implementation. People just aren't able.

  6. #26
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    The downfall to limiting power should also be obvious since it limits the capacity of leaders to do their jobs effectively. Nothing is perfect, but thinking only in terms of ideology instead of the technical aspects of reality is a large part of what sets us up for political and economic disasters. The world is complex and needs complex solutions, not oversimplifications like "limit power so as to limit the damage the corrupt few can do."
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The downfall to limiting power should also be obvious since it limits the capacity of leaders to do their jobs effectively. Nothing is perfect, but thinking only in terms of ideology instead of the technical aspects of reality is a large part of what sets us up for political and economic disasters. The world is complex and needs complex solutions, not oversimplifications like "limit power so as to limit the damage the corrupt few can do."
    Bush would say his power limitations kept him from doing his job effectively.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #28
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The world is complex and needs complex solutions, not oversimplifications like "limit power so as to limit the damage the corrupt few can do."
    The "complex solutions" are generally beyond deliberate human capacity, either individually or collectively. Equally important, the "complex solutions" needed are dymamic, constantly changing as material and social reality itself changes-long-term government programs will inevitably encounter this problem, leading to diminishing returns (with high opportunity costs) and eventual failure. "Complex solutions" are best arrived at through the phenomenon of "spontaneous order." Greater complexity parodoxically necessitates greater specialization, reforms require decentralized experimentation, and maximizing human potential lies in acknowledging human limitations rather than denying them.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 01-21-2009 at 04:33 PM. Reason: more to add

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Bush would say his power limitations kept him from doing his job effectively.
    What power limitations? He probably obtained more power than any President in US history as a result of 9-11. The problem was he wasn't held accountable for it and his administration was incredibly secretive about its actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The "complex solutions" are generally beyond deliberate human capacity, either individually or collectively. Equally important, the "complex solutions" needed are dymamic, constantly changing as material and social reality itself changes-long-term government programs will inevitably encounter this problem, leading to diminishing returns (with high opportunity costs) and eventual failure. "Complex solutions" are best arrived at through the phenomenon of "spontaneous order." Greater complexity parodoxically necessitates greater specialization, reforms require decentralized experimentation, and maximizing human potential lies in acknowledging human limitations rather than denying them.
    Nice ideology, but I don't see anything to support your ideas. What makes it clear that it is an ideology is that you treat it as if it is inherently apparent and provide nothing to support your assertions, treating them like facts or axioms. I have no personal interest in unsubstantiated political ideologies, only in technical solutions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

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