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Thread: Order

  1. #21
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    history is more of a blur than steps... agriculture runs together with the advent of languages and culture, hunting and gathering ran together with them as well. Sometimes cultures fell and went back a bit along the line.

    Order is a myth- history is written by those who survived and conquored. At any given time every step of history is currently occuring- cultural evolution and devolution.

    That's what's fun about living
    Of course you are right. Order is a lot more complex and chaotic than the way I present it here. And we cannot tackle it. Language, as you say, come in steps.

    The language of most of the tribes of the hunter gatherers is very simple, with limited vocabulary. See how the words turn from concrete to abstract. They are the same words, they change only meaning.

    Look at the word to know. There are hundreds of words like that.
    Originally the word to know meant to see. The concrete word became an abstract word, and then you needed another word to describe pure act of seeing.
    Even that word is becoming abstracized.
    We say: I see what you mean = I know what you say.

    Yes, we make history, every day. It is fun

  2. #22
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I spent quite a bit of time a while back staring at an exhibit on the evolution of Chinese writing from pictographs to modern script in the art museum. It was fascinating.

    Almost like when Kandinsky realized that he liked his painting better upside down
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #23
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I spent quite a bit of time a while back staring at an exhibit on the evolution of Chinese writing from pictographs to modern script in the art museum. It was fascinating.

    Almost like when Kandinsky realized that he liked his painting better upside down
    Yes, I am sure it was fascinating!
    That reminds me of the writer John Man and his most intriguing book Alpha Beta.
    He describes how our Alphabet developed from Ancient Egyptian, and the development of Egyptian from the pictographic to the demotic.

    If you are interested, whenever you drop in your local library, ask them to order the book.

    It is odd, I always saw Kandinsky as a figurative artist. I used to imagine one of his paintings to picture a ship port on the coast of the land of Punt, at the time of the beginning of the New Kingdom in Egypt.

  4. #24
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    History.
    Order of events.

    Agriculture.
    Civilization.
    Specific language.
    Trade.
    Politics.

    Have I forgotten something?
    If so, what?

    The order is undefined.
    I do not say it is correct.

    My memory is bad.
    What did I forget?

    What is the order of events?
    In history.
    What about creation of tools and weapons, technology? Shouldn't that be in there somewhere?

    If I were to guess the order...

    Language
    Trade
    Tools
    Agriculture
    Politics
    Civilization

    If there really has to be a discreet order, that is.

  5. #25
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Yes, I am sure it was fascinating!
    That reminds me of the writer John Man and his most intriguing book Alpha Beta.
    He describes how our Alphabet developed from Ancient Egyptian, and the development of Egyptian from the pictographic to the demotic.

    If you are interested, whenever you drop in your local library, ask them to order the book.

    It is odd, I always saw Kandinsky as a figurative artist. I used to imagine one of his paintings to picture a ship port on the coast of the land of Punt, at the time of the beginning of the New Kingdom in Egypt.
    I have an unused gift certificate to a book store- I'll have to check that out since languages fascinate me

    I think I know what painting you're talking about- like the lighthouse at Alexandria. It reminded me of Lake Superior a bit
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #26
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    History.
    Order of events.
    My guess:

    Agriculture
    Trade<-->Politics
    Specific language (spoken)
    <--Pre-history
    History-->
    Specific language (writen)
    Civilization

  7. #27
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    What about creation of tools and weapons, technology? Shouldn't that be in there somewhere?

    If I were to guess the order...

    Language
    Trade
    Tools
    Agriculture
    Politics
    Civilization

    If there really has to be a discreet order, that is.
    It depends what we see as the dawn of history.
    Tools and weapons are much older than the history of Homo Sapiens.
    We have not been around all that long.

    Specific languages have a very short history. They are the product of trade and politics.
    The people who founded Rome spoke Latin?
    The founding fathers of England spoke English?
    The Scandinavian languages, as we know them, were born in the 14th Century. Their political establishments are much older.

    Historically, English is Anglo-Saxon. But here we let semantics confuse us.
    Historically, French is Latin? Because it does have a Latin vocabulary? And English does not have the Latin vocabulary?
    The Franks spoke a language basically not different from Anglo Saxon.
    They adopted Latin? The English did not adopt Latin?
    Yes, but the English do not pronounce it properly. And the French do?

    Historically, Italian is Latin? It is as close to English as it is to Latin.
    Because of all those Latin words in English? No.
    Look at the Italian names. Are they Latin? Garibaldi, is it Latin?
    True, they have some Latin looking names in the South. But if you look closer, you see they are only latinized.

  8. #28
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    ^^ even animals communicate with one another, and some of them even have tools- not to mention systems of social heirarchy and dominance, which in the end means politics (and they say that animals are innocent... )

    culture flows- it doesn't begin or end

    Latin influenced French, and so did the local languages- French has an influence on English, though English is not considered a Romance language, but a Germanic language. English isn't French or German though, just as French is not Latin or whatever the "barbarians" spoke. Latin didn't come from nowhere- it came from local tribes, as did German and those tribes would have been influenced by other tribes and civilizations.

    The Romans stole thier Gods from the Greeks, and then stole again from the Middle East.

    It's all just learning and stealing- and which came first? learning or stealing? you've got to learn to steal, but you've got to steal the ideas in the first place...

    You can't order history or humanity- it's too confusing, and most of the trappings of "culture" aren't even all that human when you think about it!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #29
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    ^^ even animals communicate with one another, and some of them even have tools- not to mention systems of social heirarchy and dominance, which in the end means politics (and they say that animals are innocent... )

    culture flows- it doesn't begin or end

    Latin influenced French, and so did the local languages- French has an influence on English, though English is not considered a Romance language, but a Germanic language. English isn't French or German though, just as French is not Latin or whatever the "barbarians" spoke. Latin didn't come from nowhere- it came from local tribes, as did German and those tribes would have been influenced by other tribes and civilizations.

    The Romans stole thier Gods from the Greeks, and then stole again from the Middle East.

    It's all just learning and stealing- and which came first? learning or stealing? you've got to learn to steal, but you've got to steal the ideas in the first place...

    You can't order history or humanity- it's too confusing, and most of the trappings of "culture" aren't even all that human when you think about it!
    Yes!
    Order is inborn.
    Well spoken.
    Order is not a sequence at all.
    Sequence does not order.

    You said it all.
    A way better than I could have done.

    Number one is only by the way.
    Number two is theft already.

  10. #30
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    My guess:

    Agriculture
    Trade<-->Politics
    Specific language (spoken)
    <--Pre-history
    History-->
    Specific language (writen)
    Civilization
    No objection.

    Accomodation is a short hand.
    Within the limits of the short hand, you have it.

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