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  1. #51
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Low wages are not bad in of itself. What's bad is when those wages are inadequate for providing living needs.
    And the reason those wages are inadequate is because of protectionism. Protectionism raises the cost of goods, which then requires an increase in wages, which increases the cost of goods, which requires further increases in wages, and so on. Do you see the cycle here? We've had protectionism for so long that we're at the breaking point. That's why jobs have been going overseas, because American workers are overpaid compared to the rest of the world. We can't escape this economic reality. We can only try to hide from it (for a while).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #52
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The US has the ability to educate all of the children of immigrants. What makes you believe otherwise?

    If you want to get into social policy that perpetuates slums, lets talk about things like the War on Drugs.
    I am not saying that it is impossible to do it but it could be quite hard.
    Here is my logic.


    The problem not that much in the number of people you have to educate it is in the fact that all those people will come in educational system at once.
    Plus in many cases you will have problem that their parents and education system are telling them opposite things. What is formula for creating people with issues.
    Once majority of those people get some kind of a education with time and find a job there will be no one to do the dirty work again.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am not saying that it is impossible to do it but it could be quite hard.
    Here is my logic.


    The problem not that much in the number of people you have to educate it is in the fact that all those people will come in educational system at once.
    Plus in many cases you will have problem that their parents and education system are telling them opposite things. What is formula for creating people with issues.
    Once majority of those people get some kind of a education with time and find a job there will be no one to do the dirty work again.
    I don't see population growth as a problem in the US. The US is certainly better off than Europe, which doesn't produce enough children to replenish the existing population. How many immigrant children do you think we have in the US?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #54
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't see population growth as a problem in the US. The US is certainly better off than Europe, which doesn't produce enough children to replenish the existing population. How many immigrant children do you think we have in the US?
    There is no too big problem in the Us about this right now but that does not mean that there will not be such a problem,

    It does not matter how much you have but how much you will ahve.


    Here is what I am thinking in more numerical perspective.

    If you let 50 million Mexicans in the US you got extra 50 million people.
    But since they have high birth rate they they will create extra 100 miliion if they have 4 childern per family in average.
    If you don't let everyone in you will probably let in young people , young and healthy couples etc ...... since there will be bring the most benefits to the country.
    What means that reproduction will start soon after you let then in.
    If we have that extra 150 million people what means that there will be huge changes in every way. Since you can't keep them as slaves you need to give them right to vote. Once they got right to vote they can create many laws you as a person will not like. Free market could easily be the the first victim. Or they could letting their cousin in the country.
    Someone could say "OK, that is not that bad". But that is wrong since infrastructure can't support this endevour. So you will have to have huge infrastructure construction. What will be hard to achive since it has huge energy cost. Even if it turns out that you let in smaller number then 50 million there will be huge changes inside the US bacause of that.
    If you let really small number of people in that means that you have technically closed the border. Since there are hundereds of millions of people out there who will want to come.


    From this it look like that I am a racist, but I am only trying to show where math of this decision leads.
    Their skiln colour is not an issue here it is their number and culture to some degree which is a product of living in poverty.

    The biggest problem here will be infrastructure towards my logic.



    As for US and Europe thing, we have different logic when it comes to this
    If you want to talk about it I am here.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    The problem with your theory is that the numbers are way off. Mexico only has a population of about 100 million. You're suggesting that half the country moves to the US! The number of illegal immigrants currently in the US is on the order of 20 million, not 50 million. Also, those 20 million do not represent 10 million (potentially reproducing) couples. Some are women or children, but a disproportionate number are men.

    I see what you're trying to say, but the numbers just don't add up.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The problem with your theory is that the numbers are way off. Mexico only has a population of about 100 million. You're suggesting that half the country moves to the US! The number of illegal immigrants currently in the US is on the order of 20 million, not 50 million. Also, those 20 million do not represent 10 million (potentially reproducing) couples. Some are women or children, but a disproportionate number are men.

    I see what you're trying to say, but the numbers just don't add up.
    As far as I know Mexico has a population of abut 150 Milllion.

    I have on purpose made so big numbers since topic is about collapse of Mexico. If Mexico collapses then it can happen what I am saying.
    I am not talking about now. I am talking about what if scenario.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    As far as I know Mexico has a population of abut 150 Milllion.


    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../print/mx.html

    Population in Mexico, Mexico Population

    Population - Mexico

    I have on purpose made so big numbers since topic is about collapse of Mexico. If Mexico collapses then it can happen what I am saying.
    I am not talking about now. I am talking about what if scenario.
    We're not going to let tens of millions of refuges enter the country. And that's a COMPLETELY different issue from immigration, which is what I was responding to (Peguy's comment).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #58
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    California spends over $10 BILLION a year on illegal immigrants, which disgusts me considering how we are now faced with incurring some $14 billion in new taxes if the state can't figure out how to pick itself up. The proof is in the pudding just how unsustainable such immigration policy is; not going after ILLEGAL immigrants who come into our country and suck up public services and funnel money out of our economy to their home countries. The "we need them because they do jobs Americans just wont do" argument is completely fallacious. The people who argue that are themselves advocating a near SLAVE CLASS of under-payed, uneducated people who take care of the dirty jobs. Again, only the left can come up with something so ridiculous.

    Illegal Immigration Costs California $10.5 Billion Annually
    Illegal Immigration Costs California Over Ten Billion Annually
    State's "cheap labor" costs average household $1,183 a year

    By Robert Longley, About.com
    See More About:

    * illegal immigration
    * immigration reform
    * u.s. citizenship

    Government Ads
    Illegals Population Growth Texas Immigration Family Immigration America Immigration
    Dateline: December, 2004

    In hosting America's largest population of illegal immigrants, California bears a huge cost to provide basic human services for this fast growing, low-income segment of its population. A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.

    Among the key finding of the report are that the state's already struggling K-12 education system spends approximately $7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers' money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals.

    "California's addiction to 'cheap' illegal alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state's shrinking middle class tax base," stated Dan Stein, President of FAIR. "Most Californians, who have seen their taxes increase while public services deteriorate, already know the impact that mass illegal immigration is having on their communities, but even they may be shocked when they learn just how much of a drain illegal immigration has become."

    The Costs of Illegal Immigration to Californians focuses on three specific program areas because those were the costs examined by researchers from the Urban Institute in 1994. Looking at the costs of education, health care and incarceration for illegal aliens in 1994, the Urban Institute estimated that California was subsidizing illegal immigrants to the tune of about $1.1 billion. The enormous rise in the costs of illegal immigrants over the intervening ten years is due to the rapid growth in illegal residents. It is reasonable to expect those costs to continue to soar if action is not taken to turn the tide.

    "Nineteen ninety-four was the same year that California voters rebelled and overwhelmingly passed Proposition 187, which sought to limit liability for mass illegal immigration. Since then, state and local governments have blatantly ignored the wishes of the voters and continued to shell out publicly financed benefits on illegal aliens," said Stein. "Predictably, the costs of illegal immigration have grown geometrically, while the state has spiraled into a fiscal crisis that has brought it near bankruptcy.

    "Nothing could more starkly illustrate the very high costs of cheap labor' than California's current situation," continued Stein. "A small number of powerful interests in the state reap the benefits, while the average native-born family in California gets handed a nearly $1,200 a year bill."
    This is also an interesting article about money that may, again, go toward illegal immigrants.

    Hill Republican: Stimulus aids illegal immigrants
    Hill Republican: Stimulus aids illegal immigrants
    Jan 29 12:02 PM US/Eastern
    By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS
    Associated Press Writer
    Comments (2)




    House OKs $819 Billion Stimulus Bill Without One GOP Vote

    Pelosi Stammers Through Defense Of $335 Million For STD Education In Stimulus Bill

    Proposal: Obama-Limbaugh Bipartisan Stimulus Plan of 2009?

    Bipartisanship Is a Joke: Rush Spars With CNBC Hosts Over Obama-Limbaugh Stimulus Plan

    WASHINGTON (AP) - The $800 billion-plus economic stimulus measure making its way through Congress could steer government checks to illegal immigrants, a top Republican congressional official asserted Thursday.

    The legislation, which would send tax credits of $500 per worker and $1,000 per couple, expressly disqualifies nonresident aliens, but it would allow people who don't have Social Security numbers to be eligible for the checks.

    Undocumented immigrants who are not eligible for a Social Security number can file tax returns with an alternative number. A House-passed version of the economic recovery bill and one making its way through the Senate would allow anyone with such a number, called an individual taxpayer identification number, to qualify for the tax credits.

    A revolt among GOP conservatives to similar provisions of a 2008 economic stimulus bill, which sent rebate checks to most wage earners, forced Democratic congressional leaders to add stricter eligibility requirements. That legislation, enacted in February 2008, required that people have valid Social Security numbers in order to get checks.

    The GOP official voiced concerns about the latest economic aid measure on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss it publicly.

    Republicans have already blasted the package for including what they argue is wasteful spending and omitting tax cuts for wealthier people and businesses they say are needed to jump-start the anemic economy.

    Not a single Republican voted for an $819 billion version of the plan when it passed the House on Wednesday.

    GOP senators arranged a midday news conference to voice their concerns.

    Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Risen, my argument regarding that would be, the problem isn't the immigrants, it's the system. Entitlement programs do create problems in regards to immigration, but you already know my stance on that issue. I would prefer a proper solution (restructuring/reducing/eliminating entitlement programs) to a band-aid (further limiting immigration).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    And the reason those wages are inadequate is because of protectionism. Protectionism raises the cost of goods, which then requires an increase in wages, which increases the cost of goods, which requires further increases in wages, and so on. Do you see the cycle here? We've had protectionism for so long that we're at the breaking point. That's why jobs have been going overseas, because American workers are overpaid compared to the rest of the world. We can't escape this economic reality. We can only try to hide from it (for a while).
    Based on what I know, the problems here with being "overpayed" and jobs going oversees has a lot to do with the fact that this nation has the highest business taxes in the world, and the fact that our worker unions are like parasites that suck the blood (money) out of American companies. Businesses contract workers oversees so they can avoid the high costs of having workers in the U.S., from the high taxes and other gov regulations on business. In addition, their workers wont be part of any unions. It's a win win for business since they can avoid all the hassles, but it bites Americans in the ass. One solution would be to simply deregulate and lower taxes on our businesses so they wont have the strong incentive to ship jobs oversees. However, this wont solve the monstrous union problem. Companies like GM would STILL be paying their assembly line workers $80 an hour (over twice what other auto makers have to pay their workers) because of the parasitic unions and their contracts.

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