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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Gays are allowed to be in the military, just not to talk about it. It's not that hard to shut your mouth and get with the program. Not a great deal of sacrifice there.
    What I find interesting, is that you speak as if your opinions are facts, and that the majority shares your views. Maybe your jealous, because the gays aren't afraid to man up and commit to being in the service. All this, "shut up and do your job", when you weren't even capable of going to boot camp is quite interesting.

    For the record, the discrimination your talking about will still be a minority occurrence even today.



    Polling Data

    Washington Post/ABC News
    July 10-13, 2008 • 75% of Americans think homosexuals who publicly disclose their sexual orientation should be allowed to serve in the military
    • 22% of Americans think homosexuals who publicly disclose their sexual orientation should not be allowed to serve in the military
    • 3% had no opinion

    CNN
    May 4-6, 2007
    • 79% of Americans think people who are openly gay or homosexual should be allowed to serve in the U.S. military
    • 18% of Americans think people who are openly gay or homosexual should not be allowed to serve in the U.S. military
    • 3% of Americans had no opinion

    Zogby
    December 18, 2006
    • 73% of military personnel are comfortable with lesbians and gays
    • 23% of service members know for sure that someone in their unit is gay, including 21% of those in combat units
    • 45% of military personnel suspect a member of their unit is gay

    Pew Research Center
    March 2006
    • 62% of moderate Republicans support open service, along with 85% of liberal Democrats.
    • 67% of Catholics support open service, as do 53% of Protestants.
    • 66% of Americans in the Northeast support open service and 58% of those living in the South do the same.

    The Boston Globe
    May 16, 2005
    • 79% of Americans believe gays should be allowed to serve openly in the U.S. military.
    • “Large majorities of Republicans, regular churchgoers, and [even"> people with negative attitudes toward gays think gays and lesbians should be allowed to serve openly in the military,” the Globe reported.

    CNN/USA Today/Gallup
    December 31, 2003

    • 91% of Americans aged 18-29 support allowing gays to serve openly
    • 68% of Americans over 65 support allowing gays to serve openly; 74% of those aged 50-64 and 81% of people aged 30-49 support open service
    • 85% of American women and 73% of American men support allowing gays to serve openly

    National Annenberg Election Survey
    October 26, 2004

    • 50% of junior enlist personnel say that gays and lesbians should be allowed to serve openly in the military, up from 16% in 1992
    • 29% of military personnel believe open service is an issue of equal rights.
    • Service members surveyed “believe sexual orientation is unrelated to job performance,” Annenberg reported.
    • Only 16% of believed lesbian and gay service members were “bad for morale,” while just 12% thought allowing gays to serve openly would be “bad for teamwork.”

    FOX News
    August 2003

    • 64% of those polled support allowing gays to serve openly


  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    What I find interesting, is that you speak as if your opinions are facts, and that the majority shares your views. Maybe your jealous, because the gays aren't afraid to man up and commit to being in the service. All this, "shut up and do your job", when you weren't even capable of going to boot camp is quite interesting.

    For the record, the discrimination your talking about will still be a minority occurrence even today.
    Oh, it's about me, is it? I didn't enlist because I had free will, and weighed my options carefully. Something others apparently don't do, if once they arrive in their chosen profession it suddenly dawns on them that they have to follow rules. I could make it about your exclusively homosexual and blind-to-all else agenda if I wanted, would you like that?

    The fact of the matter is, the military isn't a clean cross-section of American society, however much you'd like it to be.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I could make it about your exclusively homosexual and blind-to-all else agenda if I wanted, would you like that?
    Is this an argument that there is a gay agenda?

    The fact of the matter is, the military isn't a clean cross-section of American society, however much you'd like it to be.
    The military is what the American people want it to be. We elect the officials who ultimately decide the rules the military follows.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Is this an argument that there is a gay agenda?
    No, it's an argument that 010's exclusive motivation is advancing it.


    The military is what the American people want it to be. We elect the officials who ultimately decide the rules the military follows.
    We don't elect generals, or the Secretary of Defense, who is chosen by the President, who the majority of Americans didn't vote for, by the numbers.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    No, it's an argument that 010's exclusive motivation is advancing it.
    Advancing what? Equal rights?

    We don't elect generals, or the Secretary of Defense, who is chosen by the President, who the majority of Americans didn't vote for, by the numbers.
    Congress ultimately determines what rules the military follows through legislation, not the President or Secretary of Defense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Advancing what? Equal rights?
    It's simple. She cares only for advancing homosexual causes, and therefore can't be trusted to make balanced advisements which take all subjects into consideration like I can.

    Congress ultimately determines what rules the military follows through legislation, not the President or Secretary of Defense.
    Some of it, usually that which the members of the Armed Forces themselves want nothing to do with, because they know better than civilians on the whole about military matters.

  7. #77
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    Ending of DADT is being spearheaded by not only republicans, but many retired veterans of the service. The veterans of all people, would actually know what it's really going to be like for gays to serve openly.

    Former Sen. Chuck Robb, who served 34 years in active and reserve duty as a Marine officer, in 2002 said that "the threat to morale," which some believe will occur if there is a policy to permit gays in the military, "comes not from the orientation of a few, but from the closed minds of many."
    Rep. Martin Meehan (D-Mass.), with 114 cosponsors, including conservative Republicans, on Feb. 28 introduced the Military Readiness Enhancement Act (H.R. 1246) that would end "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," and replace it with absolute nondiscrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. With most of the world's best military units not worried about the presence of gays in their ranks, with large majorities of both military and civilian personnel believing gays should be allowed to serve openly, and with a Democratic Congress that claims it plans to make necessary social changes, now is the time strike down the hostility of an intolerant minority and to eliminate one more form of officially-sanctioned discrimination.
    104 retired military brass against 'don't ask-don't tell' - CNN.com

    Former Joint Chiefs chairman: Time to include

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    What are "large majorities?" If there were a majority, they would say "The majority." 104 is not a majority.

    The problem is you don't have activists on the other side taking leading surveys themselves, because they have better things to worry about. Take me, for example. I'm not an "Anti-Gays-In-The-Mil Activist," so I'm not going to bother asking every veteran I can find if they think it's a good idea for soldiers to say "I'm gay, love me."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The common argument is always to put off tomorrow what isn't easily done today. But social change simply doesn't work in that fashion. There is nothing practical about waiting for social attitudes to change if you aren't doing the necessary things to make social attitudes change. Gays serving openly in the military is not a new thing. It has been done in 24 other countries. American soldiers have served alongside openly gay British soldiers in Iraq. Fear of prejudice is not a valid argument against fighting prejudice.
    So what would you recommend as a process to avoid (1) having the entire thing blow up and (2) gay people having the living daylights beaten out of them by troops that don't happen to agree?

    My INFP friend here at work routinely gets outraged by things I mentioned to her of how society treats certain groups of people and just insists the same thing: "They should just grow up and everyone should accept each other and learn to get along!"

    And I laugh and say, "If everyone was like you, that might work." Ideals only gel abstractedly with those who already agree with them; for those who have deep-seated issues or fears, I think an actual plan has to be developed to work through the issues.

    Most of my comments so far were dealing with the philosophies involved, and challenging the underlying preconceptions; but honestly, there needs to be practical movement beyond orders that tell enlisted men, "You will accept known gays in your squad and showers." It most likely would be a bloodbath.

    It might be better to work on acceptance in the general populace as a focal point; the army issue is a special case that is hard to resolve without some of the underlying support for the prejudice being softened or moved first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Gays have long dealt with being ostracized, so that isn't anything new. And if Don't Ask, Don't Tell is done away with they will still have the choice of whether or not they come out to their unit. What is ultimately gained is that they will have that choice and they will not have to live in fear of being expelled from the military just because of an aspect of who they are.
    While I believe in pragmatism and having a rational plan, I agree that your ideal is valuable and to be believed in. I just don't know how to implement it.

    As I asked earlier, what about our culture makes our military so unprofessional that we can't do what 24 other countries have done? And what good reason could we possibly have for not moving to change that aspect of our culture?
    I blame (1) sexism and (2) religious preconception for the main bulk of resistance. Despite all the bitching about androgyny and people crossing gender boundaries, the gender categories are pretty rigid in our country; and religious preconceptions drive the discussion... i.e., prevent it from even occurring. People who already hold beliefs have no desire to be swayed to view things differently; and if people don't want to change or they see change as evil or bad, they won't do it. Bottom line.

    Plus, you get an environment (the military) running on a strong stereotype of masculinity, coupled with the need for people to trust each other with their lives, and it's not going to be able to tolerate the gay factor thrown in there... whether that's right or wrong, it just is.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    What are "large majorities?" If there were a majority, they would say "The majority." 104 is not a majority.

    The problem is you don't have activists on the other side taking leading surveys themselves, because they have better things to worry about. Take me, for example. I'm not an "Anti-Gays-In-The-Mil Activist," so I'm not going to bother asking every veteran I can find if they think it's a good idea for soldiers to say "I'm gay, love me."
    104 is referring to the number of veterans backing the ending of DADT. The majority of military personnel is reflected below.


    December 18, 2006

    • 73% of military personnel are comfortable with lesbians and gays


    • 23% of service members know for sure that someone in their unit is gay, including 21% of those in combat units



    October 26, 2004

    • 50% of junior enlist personnel say that gays and lesbians should be allowed to serve openly in the military, up from 16% in 1992

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