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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The common argument is always to put off tomorrow what isn't easily done today. But social change simply doesn't work in that fashion. There is nothing practical about waiting for social attitudes to change if you aren't doing the necessary things to make social attitudes change. Gays serving openly in the military is not a new thing. It has been done in 24 other countries. American soldiers have served alongside openly gay British soldiers in Iraq. Fear of prejudice is not a valid argument against fighting prejudice.
    What is to be gained, and lost? To be gained...Let's see...Getting to say "I'm gay." Lost...Being outcast or even hanged while Joe & Jack Army give each other hi-fives.

    American military culture isn't 24 other countries' military culture. I have no doubts there are those within it who would accept homosexual squad-mates with open arms, but they aren't the majority.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    But isn't it idealism and not pragmatism which takes you to the position that it should be enforced now, instead of later when it will likely be more culturally accepted?
    Prop 8 barely passed. If it hadn't been for polygamous Mormons donating almost half of the prop 8 fund, the commercials that swayed a lot of unsure voters near the end, might not have been created. Even so, the Attorney General of California asked the Supreme Court to throw out prop 8. Given it's the same crowd that first decided it was unconstitutional to deny gays marriage... It's very much in favor of being overturned. When gay marriage is allowed, and it was for months (still is in other states), it's past time to allow gays to serve in the military. Marriage is a bigger deal than the army.

    Not to mention, Judges are overruling the anti-gay amendments in their states. They see nothing logically or empirically wrong with it.

    It becomes as normalized as possible on a larger scale, after laws are created and enforced. I.E. Women and African American rights movement. Yet, there is still prevalent sexism and racism in this country. Nothing is ever completely accepted within a culture. There will always be bias and prejudice.

    Given that, there is no time better than the present.

  3. #43
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    What is to be gained, and lost? To be gained...Let's see...Getting to say "I'm gay." Lost...Being outcast or even hanged while Joe & Jack Army give each other hi-fives.
    Gays have long dealt with being ostracized, so that isn't anything new. And if Don't Ask, Don't Tell is done away with they will still have the choice of whether or not they come out to their unit. What is ultimately gained is that they will have that choice and they will not have to live in fear of being expelled from the military just because of an aspect of who they are.

    YouTube - Hearing on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" - Captain Joan Darrah
    YouTube - Hearing on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" - Staff Sergeant Alva

    American military culture isn't 24 other countries' military culture. I have no doubts there are those within it who would accept homosexual squad-mates with open arms, but they aren't the majority.
    As I asked earlier, what about our culture makes our military so unprofessional that we can't do what 24 other countries have done? And what good reason could we possibly have for not moving to change that aspect of our culture?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    I don't usually say things like this, but seriously, can't you see that posts like these only make you look like an idiot? Since you've thrown PC out the window, let me break it down for you.

    If you aren't 12, I cannot help but think you must have some serious issues in your day to day life when it comes to communicating with people. My recommendation would be to figure out what you're doing wrong now to save yourself a lot of headache in the future.

    These posts are really offensive and if someone was in front of me and said these things, I might have to punch them in the face.

    "lolz"



    I'm done with my irritation and won't bring it up again or derail the thread. Carry on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    ah i can understand why gays would wanna marry

    but yeah, i don't get why they would want to join the army.

    i mean, how can they want to die for the guy next to them, if he's not giving him some in the butt? i mean, won't they view every guy as a potential butthole?

    its like a guy wanting to die for a girl. how can a guy wanna die for a girl unless they are at least romantic partners?

    also, if they are already getting some in the butt, won't their partner pretty much view them joining the army as "i wanna break up with you and find me a big husky nebraska boy in the army!"

    i mean, if i were to tell my gf " i wanna join this club, where its all girls, and i live with them, and i shower with them all day!" she'd pretty much view that as saying " i wanna break up with you"
    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    why not have a gay division in the army?

    when they are not busy having group orgies, they can be sent to the front lines, charging naked, blinding the opposing army with big penis guns that shoot sperm. scaring the living bejeezus out of the opposition army.

    that will be the end of all wars as we know it. most men rather die anyways, than be covered in another man's sperm.

    AND you have world peace. what gets better than that. lolz
    Embrace the possibilities.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    As I asked earlier, what about our culture makes our military so unprofessional that we can't do what 24 other countries have done? And what good reason could we possibly have for not moving to change that aspect of our culture?
    My thoughts exactly.
    Embrace the possibilities.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Prop 8 barely passed. If it hadn't been for polygamous Mormons donating almost half of the prop 8 fund, the commercials that swayed a lot of unsure voters near the end, might not have been created. Even so, the Attorney General of California asked the Supreme Court to throw out prop 8. Given it's the same crowd that first decided it was unconstitutional to deny gays marriage... It's very much in favor of being overturned. When gay marriage is allowed, and it was for months, it's past time to allow gays to serve in the military. Marriage is a bigger deal than the army.
    Gay marriage is almost an entirely idealogical issue. Marriage as a concept is abstract, and the argument comes down to who wants and who doesn't want gay couples to be called married. People don't oppose gay marriage because they'll have to live and work with gay married couples every day for the next few years.

    Open homosexuality in the military is something much more tangible, because it means there will be those gays who vocally insist on their acceptance, and will be severely punished for that, because of the forced cohabitation.

    Not to mention, Judges are overruling the anti-gay amendments in their states. They see nothing logically or empirically wrong with it.
    Once again, it's an entirely different situation. The Military is separate from the free society we live in. There are rules no free man would put up with, as well there should be, because the military is purpose-built. It's not supposed to be happy fun town.

    It becomes as normalized as possible on a larger scale, after laws are created and enforced. I.E. Women and African American rights movement. Yet, there is still prevalent sexism and racism in this country. Nothing is ever completely accepted within a culture. There will always be bias and prejudice.

    Given that, there is no time better than the present.
    Well, considering the omniscient and far-sighted Obama is in charge of the military, it seems you'll have your way, and I'll be proven right.

  7. #47
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    These posts are really offensive and if someone was in front of me and said these things, I might have to punch them in the face.

    "lolz"
    while im sure my second post is kind of out there, i see nothing wrong with my first post.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Gays have long dealt with being ostracized, so that isn't anything new. And if Don't Ask, Don't Tell is done away with they will still have the choice of whether or not they come out to their unit. What is ultimately gained is that they will have that choice and they will not have to live in fear of being expelled from the military just because of an aspect of who they are.

    YouTube - Hearing on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" - Captain Joan Darrah
    YouTube - Hearing on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" - Staff Sergeant Alva
    Oh, those poor soldiers! Why are they so concerned about their sexual desires being universally accepted, and not about doing their jobs? Whatever happened to toughness? Oh, I forgot. It went out of style.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Well, considering the omniscient and far-sighted Obama is in charge of the military, it seems you'll have your way, and I'll be proven right.
    Technically, most of us understand what is going to happen. There will be major issues for 10 years, it will taper down in 20, and then only the minority will behave in the animalistic manner you described. Those people will have to be punished. No one can stop any person's thoughts, but brutal actions will have consequences. That goes for both sides.

    It will eventually be accepted by the majority.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Technically, most of us understand what is going to happen. There will be major issues for 10 years, it will taper down in 20, and then only the minority will behave in the animalistic manner you described. Those people will have to be punished. No one can stop any person's thoughts, but brutal actions will have consequences. That goes for both sides.

    It will eventually be accepted by the majority.
    That's not unlikely at all. But I know that the reason you want that is your personal idealistic agenda, and not the best average outcome for everyone involved. And really, there are thousands of things more worth worrying about if your identity doesn't revolve around being homosexual.

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