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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    It's cultural. The culture of upbringing determines the attitude more often than not, and the culture of the military is much, much closer to rural Ohio than urban San Francisco. If I were gay, and I joined the military, the last thing I would ever do is let anyone know it, because ostracization isn't fun, and it's even worse when the regulations are in place to force acceptance. The old guard is perturbed by the mutilation of their cultural standards, and appreciates the chance to rail against it in whatever way they can--Creating social outcasts is an extremely effective method, and not directly against any rules.

    In a hundred years, military culture may be very fond of homosexuality (Though I wouldn't place much cash on that), and the rules should naturally follow.

    As things are today, I think the regulatory allowance of openly homosexual people in the military is an invitation to people of your persuasion (That if it's according to the rules, no one should have any other say about it), to get themselves into mortal trouble.

    The old guard will die.

    Every new generation following it, is more open minded than the last. They possess their own cultural upbringings. Over 70% of 18-25 year olds voted pro-gay marriage in California. If they join the army at 18, it doesn't erase the values they grew up with. The environment will not change the mind set of people that have been accepting most of their life. Eventually, those people will comprise at least half or more of the armed services. Over time, soldiers became more accepting in Israel. The same will happen in America. The majority evolves. That is just human nature.

    Nonetheless, there will always be homophobes. And prejudice for everything under the sun. People will dislike each other for a multitude of reasons. Gay is just another one.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    The old guard will die.

    Every new generation following it, is more open minded than the last. They possess their own cultural upbringings. Over 70% of 18-25 year olds voted pro-gay marriage in California. If they join the army at 18, it doesn't erase the values they grew up with. The environment will not change the mind set of people that have been accepting most of their life. Eventually, those people will comprise at least half or more of the armed services. Over time, soldiers became more accepting in Israel. The same will happen in America. The majority evolves. That is just human nature.

    Nonetheless, there will always be homophobes. And prejudice for everything under the sun. People will dislike each other for a multitude of reasons. Gay is just another one.
    I think perhaps your idealism has blinded you to the sociological reality. In "Today's Army," as best as I can determine without actually being in it, racism is but a memory. Discrimination based on sexual orientation though, is palpable, and is a sleeping tiger waiting to be poked with a dainty stick.

  3. #33
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    The solution is simple:

    1. Discrimination against homosexuals should be prohibited
    2. Gay people should be able to acknowledge their homosexuality without repercussion
    3. However, any sexual advances or sexual fraternization should be dealt with severely to protect the rights of non-gays.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  4. #34
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    why not have a gay division in the army?

    when they are not busy having group orgies, they can be sent to the front lines, charging naked, blinding the opposing army with big penis guns that shoot sperm. scaring the living bejeezus out of the opposition army.

    that will be the end of all wars as we know it. most men rather die anyways, than be covered in another man's sperm.

    AND you have world peace. what gets better than that. lolz

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I think perhaps your idealism has blinded you to the sociological reality. In "Today's Army," as best as I can determine without actually being in it, racism is but a memory. Discrimination based on sexual orientation though, is palpable, and is a sleeping tiger waiting to be poked with a dainty stick.
    I have already stated without a doubt, that it's going to get violent and ugly. Just like racism, the majority having stigma regarding it will fade out with each new generation. I was very realistic in saying homophobia will always exist as long as humans do. People dislike each other. It's what they do.

    You can't stop progression. It will happen. It will get better. Every revolution began somewhere.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Or one of them gets beat to a bloody pulp. It actually happens, I don't see where this over-reliance on rules comes into play.
    You're right; I hadn't brought that up yet, but dynamics between men/men are different than women/men, and physical violence is far more likely to come into play. It's "not supposed to happen" but heck, it's the army, with people who are trained to react physically to threats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    why not have a gay division in the army?

    when they are not busy having group orgies, they can be sent to the front lines, charging naked, blinding the opposing army with big penis guns that shoot sperm. scaring the living bejeezus out of the opposition army.

    that will be the end of all wars as we know it. most men rather die anyways, than be covered in another man's sperm.

    AND you have world peace. what gets better than that. lolz
    Which leads me to recall this little ditty for the new policy: "Say it, don't spray it."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    I have already stated without a doubt, that it's going to get violent and ugly. Just like racism, the majority having stigma regarding it will fade out with each new generation. I was very realistic in saying homophobia will always exist as long as humans do. People dislike each other. It's what they do.

    You can't stop progression. It will happen. It will get better. Every revolution began somewhere.
    But isn't it idealism and not pragmatism which takes you to the position that it should be enforced now, instead of later when it will likely be more culturally accepted?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    But isn't it idealism and not pragmatism which takes you to the position that it should be enforced now, instead of later when it will likely be more culturally accepted?
    Enlightenment is at least partly impacted by fighting about it now, so that people can be exposed to the topic and "educated" in a sense with more information than what they started with.

    I doubt the gay movement would have come as far as it did without all the political activity occurring in SF and elsewhere in the late 70's and early 80's.

    It's like a circle.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Enlightenment is at least partly impacted by fighting about it now, so that people can be exposed to the topic and "educated" in a sense with more information than what they started with.

    I doubt the gay movement would have come as far as it did without all the political activity occurring in SF and elsewhere in the late 70's and early 80's.

    It's like a circle.
    What I conclude is not that nothing should be done anywhere. It's that the standing army is the last place you want to test the waters, because it's as conservative and rigid a place as you can find.

    You'll find yourself with quite a few martyrs along the path to acceptance by forcing the issue, I'm confident of that. If only patience were a respected virtue here, you could have it all with little sacrifice.

    But no, the idealist says "I want this, therefore it should be made, immediately." I say "You want this, so take your time, and do it rightly."

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    But no, the idealist says "I want this, therefore it should be made, immediately." I say "You want this, so take your time, and do it rightly."
    The common argument is always to put off tomorrow what isn't easily done today. But social change simply doesn't work in that fashion. There is nothing practical about waiting for social attitudes to change if you aren't doing the necessary things to make social attitudes change. Gays serving openly in the military is not a new thing. It has been done in 24 other countries. American soldiers have served alongside openly gay British soldiers in Iraq. Fear of prejudice is not a valid argument against fighting prejudice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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