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  1. #301
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    When people are getting fired just because of their sexual orientation, then I think that means the system is broken.

    Military Has Discharged 26 Gay Linguists | Article from AP Online | HighBeam Research

    Army dismisses gay Arabic linguist - Military- msnbc.com

    But the GAO also noted that nearly 800 dismissed gay or lesbian service members had critical abilities, including 300 with important language skills. Fifty-five were proficient in Arabic, including Copas, a graduate of the Defense Language Institute in California.

    Discharging and replacing them has cost the Pentagon nearly $369 million, according to the Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military at the University of California, Santa Barbara.
    Ohhh, pricey. How bout that for an argument?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    When people are getting fired just because of their sexual orientation, then I think that means the system is broken.

    Military Has Discharged 26 Gay Linguists | Article from AP Online | HighBeam Research
    I'm gonna have to go ahead and...Disagree with you there. That's like saying humanity is broken because someone got murdered. Statistically insignificant, and does not affect the effectiveness of the armed forces.

    Re: Cost: LOL ACCORDING TO THE CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF SEXUAL MINORITIES!!! ROFL SERIOUSLY

  3. #303
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I'm gonna have to go ahead and...Disagree with you there. That's like saying humanity is broken because someone got murdered. Statistically insignificant, and does not affect the effectiveness of the armed forces.
    $396 million is statisticall insignificant?

    Can I borrow some cash Jack? I think about $200 million should be pretty good. That's pretty insignificant to you after all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    $396 million is statisticall insignificant?

    Can I borrow some cash Jack? I think about $200 million should be pretty good. That's pretty insignificant to you after all.
    How much were they paying these linguists, twenty billion a year? Those stats are fucked, my friend.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    How much were they paying these linguists, twenty billion a year? Those stats are fucked, my friend.
    The cost of recruitment, training, expenses for food and medicine, etc. I can see it costing a pretty penny dismissing gay professionals simply on the basis of them being gay. I don't know if it is over $300 million, but I'm sure it isn't cheap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    That's like saying humanity is broken because someone got murdered.
    It's more like saying humanity is broken because someone ate some soup.

    How is getting discharged for breaking the "don't ask don't tell" policy evidence that the system doesn't work? The system isn't "make sure no gay people get discharged".
    I don't wanna!

  7. #307
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    You have no idea, Poriferan. If they do have decent positive arguments for this change, they're keeping them a secret.

    Tell me, do you honestly think "It probably won't cause the organization to collapse, to any great degree..." is a positive argument, when we already know everythings going fine as is? IT AIN'T BROKE.
    You're right, it wouldn't be. That also isn't their argument. The fact that things would still be fine after ending DADT, is merely a supporting premise. They've already shown that much of the motive for actually repealing DADT in the first place are based on concerns of civil rights and ethical issues, etc..

    So the idea is : It would be a good thing if gays could be allowed in the military, for ethical, civil, and social reasons. Since everything would still be fine after repealing DADT, we might as well do it, because it's like a freebie. Using their reaosning, if we put this through cost benefit analysis, it would come to no or negligible cost, but would provide some benefet. And as you know, when the cost is zero, you should reap the benefit, even a tiny benefit.

    So, there you go. There's a case, at least the most pivotal case they seem to be making. Now make a point to distinguish your own opinions from common knowledge. For example, what their proposing does not necessarily benefit the military for itself, and they may very well know that. They may not care. Their goal doesn't necessarily have anything to do with making a strong military. It's a civil rights thing, and they think they can do it, because (going back to a previous point) they don't believe doing will damage the military in anway. So, doesn't strengthen the military, but it doesn't hurt the military either. It does, however, strengthen civil rights, for instance. So, the military is going to carry on the progress of society, with no harm taken to itself. That might be a valid concept. It is not an inate logical truth, that anything the army does should solely be for strengthening the army. Keep that in mind.

    The argument might also be made here that acceptance of gays has come along way in the USA, so it's not like the military is being given responsibility for something that the rest of the country has not. It's actually one of the last to be asked to follow the trend. And of course, there's the point that if we just keep saying "the military culture isn't like that". then we may have ourselve an excuse to never let gays into the military. They want to avoid that.

    So, here you go. I'm not telling you to agree with it. I'm telling you to acknowledge what is there.
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  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The cost of recruitment, training, expenses for food and medicine, etc. I can see it costing a pretty penny dismissing gay professionals simply on the basis of them being gay. I don't know if it is over $300 million, but I'm sure it isn't cheap.
    I'm looking at the big picture here, and something fishy is going on. Was there a gay linguist club in the Army? Were they acting oddly? Was something going on other than "suspicion of homosexuality?," and that was an excuse to fire them? Things are rarely as cut and dry as they seem.

    There is absolutely no way that figure you have of $369 million wasn't exaggerated to the maximum possible extent (Say, a guy's on his last month anyway, and they list the cost to train & pay a guy for 8 years as "firing expenses").

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    The only benefit I see, in all my brutal honesty, is that gay civilians will get to feel better.
    You are saying it as if it wasn't reason enough. But it is.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    You are saying it as if it wasn't reason enough. But it is.
    Depends who you're asking. People who aren't familiar with the military and often have pacifict tendencies don't give a damn whether it's a functional entity.

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