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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I guarantee you, if the military had to vote on keeping DADT, and it actually counted, I think it would be upheld because of what I perceive of the military culture and who comprise it. Is repealing DADT the right thing to do from an idealistic and equality standpoint? Yeah I think it is. But is it feasible at this time, is it practical, is it worth the risks at this point in time, when in a decade or so the culture may be different and more tolerant? I'm not so sure. And the military isn't the institution I'd like to see take that risk.
    The American people decide how the military should be run by the officials they elect. If the military had a vote in 1948 of whether or not to desegregate the army, then you can be sure it would have voted against it. The military culture doesn't always know what is in the best interest of the military. And I'm sure there were people who didn't want the military to take the "risk" of desegregation a good 20 years before the Civil Rights movement, but it did, and it survived.

    Now you and Jack may keep throwing around the word "idealistic" but the truth is that doing away with DADT is the rational, responsible, and fair thing to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Redneck Jim. I read the book Black Hawk Down years before the silly movie was made, and something struck me (I'm not the only one). There are two kinds of soldiers, those who joined the military because it's the military, and those who joined because they had nothing better to do and/or wanted "money for college."

    Most importantly: One soldier from group A could take on ten from group B without breaking a sweat.
    Uh huh.

    I think you just dispelled any credibility you might have had on this issue with that last post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The American people decide how the military should be run by the officials they elect.
    Is that what we're debating?

    You think Vietnam and the recent Iraq conflict were run properly, because of who decided to run them that way?

    If the military had a vote in 1948 of whether or not to desegregate the army, then you can be sure it would have voted against it. The military culture doesn't always know what is in the best interest of the military. And I'm sure there were people who didn't want the military to take the "risk" of desegregation a good 20 years before the Civil Rights movement, but it did, and it survived.
    It's an entirely different issue, with different problems.
    Now you and Jack may keep throwing around the word "idealistic" but the truth is that doing away with DADT is the rational, responsible, and fair thing to do.
    Here I was just waiting for you to tell me how it is, so I could know.

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Uh huh.

    I think you just dispelled any credibility you might have had on this issue with that last post.
    You don't think that's true? Check out Black Hawk Down, and read about the difference between the Rangers and the 10th Mountain Division. It's in black and white, just like you like it.

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The American people decide how the military should be run by the officials they elect. If the military had a vote in 1948 of whether or not to desegregate the army, then you can be sure it would have voted against it. The military culture doesn't always know what is in the best interest of the military. And I'm sure there were people who didn't want the military to take the "risk" of desegregation a good 20 years before the Civil Rights movement, but it did, and it survived.

    Now you and Jack may keep throwing around the word "idealistic" but the truth is that doing away with DADT is the rational, responsible, and fair thing to do.
    This would be fine if the American people always made incredible decisions when electing officials. The last 8 years though, eh. I guess they had a minor hiccup? And repealing DADT is the rational, responsible, and fair thing to do for who? The gays, or the military? I am not against the eventual destruction of DADT, but I would like to see the general culture of the country change a bit first. We still don't have gay marriage, gay adoption, and gays are still denied equal civil rights in many cases. That doesn't sound like a society that accepts gays as equal to me.



  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    This would be fine if the American people always made incredible decisions when electing officials. The last 8 years though, eh. I guess they had a minor hiccup? And repealing DADT is the rational, responsible, and fair thing to do for who? The gays, or the military? I am not against the eventual destruction of DADT, but I would like to see the general culture of the country change a bit first. We still don't have gay marriage, gay adoption, and gays are still denied equal civil rights in many cases. That doesn't sound like a society that accepts gays as equal to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Here I was just waiting for you to tell me how it is, so I could know.
    Let's look at it rationally.

    1. You have no evidence to support keeping this policy.
    2. There is testimonial evidence that the military could do without this policy and a good share of people would benefit without it.

    Conclusion: There is no reason to continue the DADT policy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Let's look at it rationally.

    1. You have no evidence to support keeping this policy.
    2. There is testimonial evidence that the military could do without this policy and a good share of people would benefit without it.

    Conclusion: There is no reason to continue the DADT policy.
    1. You have no evidence against keeping this policy.
    2. There is testimonial evidence that the military will be worse off without the policy, and that morale and fighting effectiveness will decrease as a result.

    You have failed.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    But what you don't understand, obviously, is that facts and figures are almost always a pale, distorted representation of reality, and someone who indeed subjectively analyzes real situations will have a better picture.
    I took everything into consideration first. I looked into the history of gays being able to serve openly in the military. I read about the many places it's been allowed and how it was received. The military is strict everywhere. Human nature is the same, regardless of where one is located. There was backlash in the beginning of the repeals for the 26 nations, and as time went by, it reached equilibrium in every single situation. Those were all real time working models to take data from. It's functional empirical evidence. I also took into account the legitimate polls done in the U.S. for the general population, and military personnel. I know two lesbians in the military. In the many years they have been in the service, they have yet to even hear about, much less witness anything tragic towards suspected or out gays if their units are accepting. I think Obama wouldn't try to repeal DADT, if he didn't have the knowledge that it could actually work.

    Given the many different levels of information, it made sense. From my perspective, the factors are obvious. I didn't think I needed to state my entire case from the get go.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Furthermore, 010, psychologically speaking, you define prejudice. You've first created an internal conclusion, and second, sought out all evidence you could find to support it. (This is how Ti works, if you're interested, and I've hardly seen an INTJ with more reliance on the function).

    This is not how someone like myself (Or other N-dominants) operate. First is the big picture analysis, second is the conclusion.
    It's possible I'm Ti dom, but I didn't put it together afterwards. I addressed various points throughout the thread, only when it was clear a poster didn't understand why I held a certain stance.

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    1. You have no evidence against keeping this policy.
    2. There is testimonial evidence that the military will be worse off without the policy, and that morale and fighting effectiveness will decrease as a result.

    You have failed.
    1. I have provided evidence against this policy. Remember these video clips that you refused to watch.

    YouTube - Hearing on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" - Rep. Patrick Murphy
    YouTube - Hearing on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" - Staff Sergeant Alva
    YouTube - Hearing on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" - Captain Joan Darrah

    2. You have not provided any valid evidence to continue the policy. You have only provided your rational and personal reasons for why you believe we should keep the policy.

    Conclusion: You have no evidence based reason by which to support continuing the policy, whereas I do.

    For an NT, you don't really do the whole logic thing very well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  10. #290
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    It's different, 010, but obviously you're not going to take my word for it. *sigh*

    Even in your post, you admit to functioning exactly as I outlined, because your research was with a purpose in mind.

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