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  1. #241
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    was there a lot that was wrong with don't ask don't tell policy?

    while i *am* for gay rights in general, there is more complexity to this issue than those issues which involve rights of gays when theyre in their own homes, so to speak.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  2. #242
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    For those comparing the US to other countries, remember we have one of the most conservative nations still (like it or not, it is true) and one of the most conservative military's related to tradition.

    I talk with some of these soldiers on a daily basis. Some will be ok with it, others will not. That right there creates possible minor divisions. Now when bullets start flying this will be likely the last thing on most people's minds but for overall morale it will still factor in. There are MANY(many,many) cases still in the military of people being transferred to new units when rumors start flying someone is gay and morale goes down big time. I have worked with people who in their careers have personally had to do this, this is not fiction.

    The US military is not ready. You need one or two more generations (with the current young, more accepting crowd becoming future Flag officers). Heck our country as a whole is barely becoming acceptable in some regions, and you want to push one of the more conservative segments that like it or not is a critical foundation to the success of this nation. As others have said, there is ZERO benefit in pushing this in any form of strategic reasoning. There is only social reasoning and I'm sorry to say is the last concern of the military.

    Give it 30 years and things will change naturally, as it should with the military in this regard. Forcing it will cause massive morale issues when we 100% do not need it, especially if it causes experienced soldiers to start leaving or reassigning themselves out of units because they don't want to be near a gay person. This will happen...100%. Intolerance is still rampant with a ton of people in the military and yes, it is sad, but you have to know the backgrounds of a good portion of our military.

  3. #243
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maabus1999 View Post
    For those comparing the US to other countries, remember we have one of the most conservative nations still (like it or not, it is true) and one of the most conservative military's related to tradition.

    I talk with some of these soldiers on a daily basis. Some will be ok with it, others will not. That right there creates possible minor divisions. Now when bullets start flying this will be likely the last thing on most people's minds but for overall morale it will still factor in. There are MANY(many,many) cases still in the military of people being transferred to new units when rumors start flying someone is gay and morale goes down big time. I have worked with people who in their careers have personally had to do this, this is not fiction.

    The US military is not ready. You need one or two more generations (with the current young, more accepting crowd becoming future Flag officers). Heck our country as a whole is barely becoming acceptable in some regions, and you want to push one of the more conservative segments that like it or not is a critical foundation to the success of this nation. As others have said, there is ZERO benefit in pushing this in any form of strategic reasoning. There is only social reasoning and I'm sorry to say is the last concern of the military.

    Give it 30 years and things will change naturally, as it should with the military in this regard. Forcing it will cause massive morale issues when we 100% do not need it, especially if it causes experienced soldiers to start leaving or reassigning themselves out of units because they don't want to be near a gay person. This will happen...100%. Intolerance is still rampant with a ton of people in the military and yes, it is sad, but you have to know the backgrounds of a good portion of our military.
    results of all the transfers: THE GAY BRIGADE!!!
    they're sassy, they're well dressed and gosh darnit... they're after you!!!

    (sorry, i had to)
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  4. #244
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well I did provide such here, which includes expert testimony to the Senate. I have yet to hear a real answer to it.
    The stuff from 1993? What answer are you looking for? It was 15 years ago! Attitudes were different back then. I guess if we are going to use outdated information I could make an argument that there should be gays in the military since Alexander the Great was gay.

    Most of the "testimonial evidence" that has been presented to the contrary mostly revolves around vague references to the policies of other militaries. Yet I stated earlier one has to take into account the various natures of different militaries. You can't make blanket comparisons between different forces. Most of the militaries I've heard allowing gays can be summed up in one phrase: they're complete jokes!
    Actually I posted links from the Congressional hearing on the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy that occurred right here in 2008.

    YouTube - Hearing on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" - Staff Sergeant Alva
    YouTube - Hearing on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" - Captain Joan Darrah
    YouTube - Hearing on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" - Rep. Patrick Murphy

    There's plenty of military history for me to draw upon here.
    As do I. There is an extensively long history of homosexuality in the military.

    If your entire argument is that the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy should remain in effect because of cherry picked facts from history, then you aren't making a very good case.
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  5. #245
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maabus1999 View Post
    Give it 30 years and things will change naturally, as it should with the military in this regard. Forcing it will cause massive morale issues when we 100% do not need it, especially if it causes experienced soldiers to start leaving or reassigning themselves out of units because they don't want to be near a gay person. This will happen...100%. Intolerance is still rampant with a ton of people in the military and yes, it is sad, but you have to know the backgrounds of a good portion of our military.
    I wonder when Truman desegregated the army in 1948, a good 20 years before the Civil Rights movement, if there were people like you who were saying, "Oh give it more time."

    There is no reason to wait 20 years. Our military could handled desegregation a good 20 years before the people were ready, so I'm sure it can handle allowing gays to serve openly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Hmmmn....well it'd be interesting to further discuss this issue, especially in light of Tocqueville's observation of how democracies degenerate into "tyrannies of the majority". But that'll have to wait for another time.
    Exactly. The point is, the majority has gone ahead with allowing gays to serve openly for quite a long time. And guess what? Nothing horrific has happened. That's what I call empirical evidence.

    The skeleton of the military is the same regardless of nation. Service is tough in the states. Service is tough everywhere else too. I could arguably say Israel has it worse, and they function just fine.

  7. #247
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maabus1999 View Post
    ...Give it 30 years and things will change naturally, as it should with the military in this regard....
    Having thought more about it, yes, this might be a case of putting the cart before the horse.

    Rather than imposing the change with this particular institution, it might be an easier transition with more chance of success if you let them catch up later to the rest of the nation rather than imposing something on them that is not currently a good fit.

    Change the people that comprise the organization, and the organization will change on its own. That's generally what's been happening in society; the military just happens to be strongly conservative (insanely so -- it's all wrapped up in God, country, Christianity, and patriotism, defending the established values against new forces and ideas) in how it functions and thinks, so it's going to fight off such change and even label it as evil.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #248
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    A thought strikes me today about all of this... I heard it argued earlier in this thread that Gays join the Army knowing what they are getting into... but this works the other way too.

    Perhaps those would be so intolerant as to hate having to work with someone who is gay wouldn't join the army to begin with for fear of having to work and live with someone who is gay. (If they feel that strongly about it and know its a possibility why wouldn't they think twice?)

    In my opinion, I don't know that I want the people representing us to foreigners to be closed minded and prejudice. Tolerance and understanding should be something that a soldier understands and practices, maybe even above the responsibility of a civilian because their JOB is to be in other countries, with other cultures and to exist peacefully with them.

    +1 for the policy amendment?

    *Braces for the rebuttals*
    Embrace the possibilities.

  9. #249
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty_Mountain_Rose View Post
    *Braces for the rebuttals*
    While I agree that gays should be allowed to serve openly in the military, their primary occupation is warfare, not being cultural ambassadors (and in most places they're sent to, it would not constitute a diplomatic benefit, anyway). Maabus has introduced information that, if accurate, would indicate that it would be prudent to wait until current wars are over (though certainly not for thirty years, Kiddo is right about the army de-segregation precedent).

  10. #250
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    Obama stated before he was elected, he wanted to repeal DADT after soldiers are pulled out of Iraq. That makes sense. Either way, there's no reason to wait 20 years. Many people are ready. People are what comprise the military. They have the ability to evolve, and a decent percentage already has. The newer generations will get use to it, after they realize it's not a nightmare. It's easy to see the apprehensions of the anti-gay side, but until the close minded serve with other gay people and see most of them only want to do their job, change won't fully occur. It's the same situation that happened with the 26 other nations that allow gays to openly serve. It doesn't mean everyone's mind will change, but the majority always does.

    Military service is conservative everywhere. Yet, the data over the years points to tolerance, in every single situation. Aside from that, I trust Obama's advisors and sources know far more about what's going on than we ever will. He is an extremely calculating man. I highly doubt he would make a definitive statement, unless he was certain.

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