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  1. #211
    Sniffles
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    Yes, which goes to show that "polls" are not be uncritically trusted as sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    The majority is correct.
    Hmmmn....well it'd be interesting to further discuss this issue, especially in light of Tocqueville's observation of how democracies degenerate into "tyrannies of the majority". But that'll have to wait for another time.

    Concerning the British army, there's a simple counter-argument to that....we're not the British army. Policies that may work in one military will not necessarily work in another. You have to take into consideration the various different aspects of that military's general nature, strategtic objectives, history/tradition, etc.

    In the late 19th century up untill WWII, there was a huge craze among many of the world's militaries to copy themselves off the Germans. This even included America for a time. During WWII, German officers had much difficulty imposing traditional Prussian discipline among soldiers of its Axis allies - nations that lacked that kind of military tradition. One of the more famous examples of this was in regards to the Spainish Blue Division, which fought alongside the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front til 1943. There was also the famous incident of Mussolini trying to impose the Prussian goosestep into the Italian army with comical results.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Neither matter. Address the argument, not the arguer. (I did address you a moment ago, but it really was advice, not an attempt to alter the arguments being made).
    I'm doing both. Attacked the illogical no-benefit argument, and then attacked the single-minded opponent.

    And this statement is preposterous. Subjective values must be factored. They must be factored in conjunction with empirical evidence, facts, and logic. There is no discussion of pertinence to mankind that makes those things inconsequential.
    Are you sure you're taking a stance of opposition to what I said? It sounds like you're agreeing with it, but you misread it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    It's not pride. It's relevant to what is happening right now. This is the current events thread. My personal reason is equality. Nothing more. If the anti-gay side was able to come up with a solid reason, I am open enough to consider it and even accept it. If it has empirical value. Yet, I do not believe in tradition or rituals, for the sake of.
    You claim all you want is equality for everyone (which in itself is an idealistic nonsense goal), but what I see you doing is consistently advancing the gay cause, and no other cause, thus how can your opinion be trusted on a matter which doesn't only take gay equality into consideration?

    If you'd like to get even more specific, you have attacked my personal stake in this thread like 10 times. While I only asked about yours once. The fact that you Fe'd all over me, erased me from your friend's list, and told me to never speak to you again, means I must have uncovered your bias in this discussion. Did I bring it up again after that? No. What it means to you, has no bearing on whether or not you can give a logical response.
    The reason I deleted you from my friend's list is because you insulted me personally, not because we disagree. And since then, I've not held back in dissecting your bias.

    The reason I told you never to speak to me again was because you were pestering me with statements such as the above, acting like you did nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    1) I think you have missed quite a few of the benefits. Esp. in regards to the implications of 'don't ask, don't tell' policy. They do not ask, you do not tell. Simply? Hardly.

    However.....legally, if suspicions arise, the military can lead an investigation and if found 'guilty', you're fired. You didn't tell. You just *were*. So, obviously, this is not as simple as 'don't ask, don't tell'....and, even more to the point, all this stuggle and milestones with human rights gets eradicated within moments, as soon as an investigation occurs, because it equates, ONCE AGAIN, homosexuality with *something deviant/wrong*.
    It's statistically insignificant. More people get mauled by pitbulls every year than fired for being gay in the Army, I'm sure.

    P.S., homosexuality is deviant, and that's why it's unnecessary to incorporate into the conservative military. Just because it's not "wrong," doesn't mean everyone will love you for it.

  3. #213
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    The arguments against giving gays full rights in the military simply don't stand up to scrutiny.

    Firstly, other countries have already done this with no apparent indication that the combat effectiveness of their troops has been undermined. These objections are based on a simple appeal to the fear of uncertainty.

    As for the assertion that gays will suffer at the hand of the bigots, that can happen, but at least each person will be given the freedom to decide for themselves. Simply having the legal right does not mean that every gay will start flaunting their preference. Each person will based their decision on their own best judgment.

    At the very least, dedicated soldiers will no longer be discriminated against by the country that they risk their lives for. Surely this isn't too much to ask for?

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    TFirstly, other countries have already done this with no apparent indication that the combat effectiveness of their troops has been undermined. These objections are based on a simple appeal to the fear of uncertainty.
    The US Mil draws from a different pool than the others, a more conservative pool, and they can't be directly compared.

    As for the assertion that gays will suffer at the hand of the bigots, that can happen, but at least each person will be given the freedom to decide for themselves. Simply having the legal right does not mean that every gay will start flaunting their preference. Each person will based their decision on their own best judgment.
    But the potential conflict is the drawback. With it, the integrity of the organization, therefore its effectiveness, is compromised.

    At the very least, dedicated soldiers will no longer be discriminated against by the country that they risk their lives for. Surely this isn't too much to ask for?
    I'm going to get a cush job at a non-profit organization created to increase homosexual rights. And I'm going to sign up for some gay-only scholarships too, trying to get the money set aside for the gay people. Of course, if they ask me, I'll just lie about it.

    This is, of course, a silly proposition, but it's in good company.

  5. #215
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    These objections are based on a simple appeal to the fear of uncertainty.
    Which is very legitimate within a military situation, because so much is at stake. Not just the lives of the soldiers involved, but in many cases the very existence of your country. You don't have time to dick around with various social engineering experiments in the name of abstract conceptions of "equality".

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Which is very legitimate within a military situation, because so much is at stake. Not just the lives of the soldiers involved, but in many cases the very existence of your country. You don't have time to dick around with various social engineering experiments in the name of abstract conceptions of "equality".
    Better than I said it.

  7. #217
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I repeat my case that the US military is apparently in need of a whole psychological make-over.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    You claim all you want is equality for everyone (which in itself is an idealistic nonsense goal), but what I see you doing is consistently advancing the gay cause, and no other cause, thus how can your opinion be trusted on a matter which doesn't only take gay equality into consideration?
    I can't resist being the logic police. That's an ad hominem attack.

    P.S., homosexuality is deviant, and that's why it's unnecessary to incorporate into the conservative military. Just because it's not "wrong," doesn't mean everyone will love you for it.
    No one is asking for love. They're simply asking their own country to not enforce bigotry against them.

  9. #219
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    It's statistically insignificant. More people get mauled by pitbulls every year than fired for being gay in the Army, I'm sure.
    You can be as sure as you like. It would still make you wrong.

    United Press International did an analysis, looking at 2000-2004 data, 1000 service members were fired, within that 5 years range.

    Rather than stats on mauling, closest stats (due to logistical reasons of reporting of cases) would be deaths by pitbull, which averages 3/year in the US, so over a 5-yrs run, that accounts for 15.

    Ratio: 1000:15 - *at least with your analogy, it *seems* very significant, with 66 times more likely of the former occuring than the latter.

    P.S., homosexuality is deviant, and that's why it's unnecessary to incorporate into the conservative military. Just because it's not "wrong," doesn't mean everyone will love you for it.
    Explain 'deviant' - do you mean falling on the outer edges of a normal distribution? Do you mean a subjective moral stance that is usually the meaning of the word 'deviant'? Explain to me deviant, and we'll go from there.

    Btw, my second point, in terms of my finding an issue with your cost/benefit argument, and my alternative plan of 'ALL HIDE. ALL DON"T TELL'.....which would be the closest to utility of the cost/benefit model....

    ...you didn't comment.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Which is very legitimate within a military situation, because so much is at stake. Not just the lives of the soldiers involved, but in many cases the very existence of your country. You don't have time to dick around with various social engineering experiments in the name of abstract conceptions of "equality".
    Not true. They are not breaking any new grounds. Other countries already done it. Also, the military is not so fragile that even small changes can result in total annihilation.

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