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  1. #131
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    Re: MMR

    Why are people having trouble separating military life from civilian life?

    This isn't about being able to vote, or use the same drinking fountain at the drug store down the street from where you grew up.

    It's about proper conduct in a very rigidly controlled environment that people have put themselves into intentionally.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    At least you admit your being bigoted. I can respect that.
    I did no such thing. Knock that shit off.

    The problem with it, is that sometimes it slips. Once an investigation begins, that allows for a witch hunt to find evidence. Anyone under scrutiny almost always gets sent out of the service. When someone has dedicated their life to the military, and gets kicked out for sexual orientation, it's a waste of a good soldier. Especially, when the individual did their best to live within the codes of the military.
    People get killed in battle who were trying to live within the codes as well. They have it worse off. It's alot easier not to say "I'm gay...Oops!" than it is not to get accidentally hit by a mortar round.

    And most people would much rather live their cushy life while others get killed for their freedom. Obama wants people to volunteer. If he doesn't get enough people, that means he's drafting.
    That's not going to happen. The draft would never float today.

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty_Mountain_Rose View Post
    Neither of those make sense. (And know that I'm arguing now for the joy of arguing semantics with an INTP Tell me when you want me to back off.)

    Nothing about either of the bolded words has anything to do with a valid reason for descrimination. (which is really what the issue is at its core because there is no biological reason why they cannot perform the same duties).

    Just because they volunteer to be a part of something, namely defending their country, doesnt mean that they should have to change who they are or be banned from participating. They aren't ex sociopaths escaped from the insane asylum, they aren't prisoners who commited violent crimes... they are people who want to contribute to a cause.

    The ability to take orders in the military and work with a team does not depend on 'what team you bat for' so to speak, but on your dedication to a cause. Just because you are allowed to admit to being gay doesn't mean you're trying to get attention, it means you are gay. Nothing more. If others choose to make more of it than there is, that is their issue.

    Did the women who got in line to vote for the first time do it simply to draw attention to themselves? Maybe some did, but most did it because they wanted to participate. And for those who DID seek attention, that was their right, because this country is founded on equality, and if their voting disturbed others, it didn't matter. (Were there WOMEN who thought it was horrifying and indecent? Youbecha. )

    But it was the end of an era of injustice. That is what counted. No matter how you look at it, to descriminate is wrong. Being homosexual isn't a disease or disorder. It isn't a handicap. It doesn't cause blurred vision or shakey hands or irrational bouts of hitting on others of the same sex.

    I sense that this idea of the military being a war machine is essential to what you're trying to get across, but the words to express it haven't been quite right yet. I'm starting to get my own gut feeling that I know what you're getting at`but I still don't grasp it with any coherence yet...
    Nobody is arguing that gays cannot perform just as well as a straight person in the military. The rule is clear in the military. Don't ask, don't tell. They aren't discriminating against gays. They're just asking you to follow the rules and not divulge your sexuality, because of the effect it has on group dynamics.



  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Re: MMR

    Why are people having trouble separating military life from civilian life?

    This isn't about being able to vote, or use the same drinking fountain at the drug store down the street from where you grew up.

    It's about proper conduct in a very rigidly controlled environment that people have put themselves into intentionally.
    When something like being gay is an integral part of someone, it may slip out. Imagine if someone straight had to pretend to be another orientation. Yet, that person still had to spend a lot of time with other soldiers and at some point make small talk. Could that person that's been straight all their life, always remember to say they were not? Now, this can be avoided to some extent, but when someone that's been in the service for a long time and never mentions or brings a significant other to social occasions, rumors will start. There are homophobic service people that go out of their way spy and tattle. People investigated for suspicion of homosexuality are almost always kicked out, because the appointed committee will dig to find evidence to get rid of the person. Basically, once they have an excuse to pin someone, they go full force.

    So, a gay person could be totally minding their own business and still get sacked. The situation is complex. Repealing DADT will allow those people to serve with security.

    If anyone flaunts their sexuality, there is no reason for them to be in the military. That is a completely different scenario, but the decent people worked hard enough to earn their place there.

  5. #135
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    I guess the analogy to womens voting is apt, especially since voting rights were granted at times when such a right were largely meaningless.

    Since the fighting quality and overall status of our forces has also been in decline for some time, so much that standards have had to be significantly lowered to allow more people in, so might as well continue that trend and get rid of DADT.

    Interesting how this logic constantly plays itself out in history.


    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    And civilians would much rather live their cushy life while others get killed for their freedom. Obama wants people to volunteer. Repealing DADT will provide the estimated number of people necessary. If he doesn't meet his quota, that means he's drafting.
    Yeah, this argument is built upon numerous false assumptions. First, those soldiers are actually getting killed for our "freedom"(whatever that means).

    Second, the notion that repealing DADT is actually necessary to drive up recruitments. Yeah or maybe the American military can cut down on its overseas deployments, and redeploy those soldiers where needed(Iraq, Afghanistan). There are shitloads of other possible ways to remedy the situation besides repealing DADT.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I guess the analogy to womens voting is apt, especially since voting rights were granted at times when such a right were largely meaningless.

    Since the fighting quality and overall status of our forces has also been in decline for some time, so much that standards have had to be significantly lowered to allow more people in, so might as well continue that trend and get rid of DADT.

    Yeah, this argument is built upon numerous false assumptions.
    Saying gay people are lower than convicted criminals is ridiculous.

    It's not my argument. It's Obama's.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    When something like being gay is an integral part of someone, it may slip out. Imagine if someone straight had to pretend to be another orientation. Yet, that person still had to spend a lot of time with other soldiers and at some point make small talk. Could that person that's been straight all their life, always remember to say they were not?
    I honestly fail to see the difficulty in that. A gay person who goes in for a full career, say as an officer, would well be aware of what he/she needs to do to fit in.

    Now, this can be avoided to some extent, but when someone that's been in the service for a long time and never mentions or brings a significant other to social occasions, rumors will start. There are homophobic people that go out of their way spy and tattle. People investigated for suspicion of homosexuality are almost always kicked out, because the appointed committee will dig to find evidence to get rid of the person. Basically, once they have an excuse to pin someone, they go full force.
    I don't doubt there are. That's kind of the point. By encouraging openness of sexuality, you encourage more instances of torment.
    So, a gay person could be totally minding their own business and still get sacked. The situation is complex. Repealing DADT will allow those people to serve with security.
    Yeah, I don't agree. The security would only be in writing, as I've said. And truth be told, big deal. I'm almost not concerned at all about one person occasionally being fired from any job for not fitting in.

    If anyone flaunts their sexuality, there is no reason for them to be in the military. That is a completely different scenario, but the decent people worked hard enough to earn their place there.
    But what's to stop them from creating a nightmare scenario by telling every redneck in the barracks they're gay, and naively thinking the rules will protect them?

    Everybody should just quit whining and serve their country or get out.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Why are people having trouble separating military life from civilian life?
    Yes I agree. Most of the arguments lack even a basic understanding of military esprit de corps. Although it's only one piece in a larger puzzle, namely the great disconnect between the military and everyday life in America.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I honestly fail to see the difficulty in that. A gay person who goes in for a full career, say as an officer, would well be aware of what he/she needs to do to fit in.
    So, you would be able to erase any mention to liking women? Ever having a girlfriend, crush, great lay, or a wife? Never sitting around with the guys and talking about some girl you think is pretty or want to ask out? If you had kids or a family, that also can never be mentioned because it would allude to your heterosexuality.

    Your right. It's a really easy task.

    You wouldn't last a week without making a statement that proves you're a heterosexual. So, it is ridiculous to think every gay person can hide it that well.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    So, you would be able to erase any mention to liking women? Ever having a girlfriend, crush, great lay, or a wife? Never sitting around with the guys and talking about some girl you think is pretty or want to ask out? If you have children and/or a family, that also can never be mentioned because it would allude to your heterosexuality.

    Your right. It's a really easy task.
    (It's you're. I overlooked it the first ten times.)

    If I were considering joining up, and those were the rules, I would ask myself if I could do it, and if it was worth it. If I decided to join, I would follow the rules.

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