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  1. #121
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Hold on to your hats boys. Change is approaching. Don't worry, the inevitable progress will unfold in the next 10 years.
    Inevitability is often the justification for failing ideas.

    You can stop fretting by getting use to it now.
    "A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it."
    --GK Chesterton

  2. #122
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    Its definately a hot topic. There isn't an easy solution. Change isnt easy, especially when there is prejudice involved. I just don't get why discriminating based on sexual orientation is illegal in every other work place in our country EXCEPT the military.

    I don't understand how someone's preference for who they want to be with can affect their ability to serve and protect their country.

    There may be the 'uncomfortable' factor... but didn't it exist with blacks as well in the history of our military? There were times when, if you were black, you could not serve the same way a white man could. White men were uncomfortable then and thought it would bring division to the ranks and put peoples lives in danger. I see no difference with this case.

    This of course is all very idealistically spoken. In a perfect world, there would not be beatings or otherwise, but the world isn't perfect. The fact remains that it is the duty of man to seek truth, and the truth is that despite sexual orientation, whatever it may be, they are all serving the same cause and are equally capable of performing their duty's.

    How is it OK to justify descrimination of ANY kind, no matter what the reason? That, to me, is trying to bend reality to your views rather than the other way around. It is justification for something that is inherently wrong.

    Each person deserves to be measured and weighed by their own actions, not by the actions of others. Sterotyping is a dangerous practice and is usually fed by fear or ignorance.

    If you stand by and watch this injustice, if you can justify hatred, descrimination, stereotyping... then your logic is flawed somewhere.

    You are correct in saying that there may be issues with real equality in implementation... but there were issues when schools were integrated and issues when women got the right to vote. Fear of those issues held those causes back for a long time, but still, things had to change because it was wrong.

    This is no different.
    Embrace the possibilities.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty_Mountain_Rose View Post
    If you stand by and watch this injustice, if you can justify hatred, descrimination, stereotyping... then your logic is flawed somewhere.
    Context! Context! Context!

    We're discussing people who volunteer to be part of a war machine. This is not the general population.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    What you consistently refuse to acknowledge is that I have this ability to put myself in peoples shoes, called empathy. This includes those people in the military with very conservative ways.

    When you're only focused on an ideal, what you think has gotta be right, and lack empathy, well...That's what you look like.
    Those shoes being bigoted ones?

    I really liked how you called the hypothetical gay guy, Army Jane. This Army Jane would definitely talk about his sex life with a conservative man or any straight guys that will listen. It's appropriate to talk about sex at work, and gay guys are all about that. It makes a lot of sense. In fact, the way you jumped to that only shows your prejudices and misunderstandings regarding gay men. Gays are not sexual animals with no restraint or sense of what's right.

    People can hold any prejudices they want. I am very rational in knowing they always will, and they are fully entitled to them. Yet, human rights are not to be decided by aesthetic concerns.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Those shoes being bigoted ones?
    Yes.

    I really liked how you called the hypothetical gay guy, Army Jane.
    His name is Billy-Jane Army.

    This Army Jane would definitely talk about his sex life with a conservative man or any straight guys that will listen. It's appropriate to talk about sex at work, and gay guys are all about that. It makes a lot of sense. In fact, the way you jumped to that only shows your prejudices and misunderstandings regarding gay men. Gays are not sexual animals with no restraint or sense of what's right.
    What is wrong with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" if they won't be talking about it?

    I've not once said that someone who happens to be gay shouldn't be in the military. It's not about what you are, it's about what you do.

  6. #126
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Don't worry, I'm the only one who knows what Ti means.
    one would think that after almost 9,000 posts on an mbti forum in about half a year, you might have told the rest of us.

    i once had a gay boss that happened to have served in vietnam way back when. He said it was the most sex he ever had, lol.

  7. #127
    Sniffles
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    People can hold any prejudices they want. I am very rational in knowing they always will, and they are fully entitled to them. Yet, human rights are not to be decided on aesthetic concerns.
    Yeah ok, your posts are nothing more than a non-stop stream of emotional appeals to "inevitability" and that anybody who doesn't agree with you is a bigot. Oh yeah and if anybody calls you on this, you scream back that you're not going anywhere and blah blah blah blah blah.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post
    one would think that after almost 9,000 posts on an mbti forum in about half a year, you might have told the rest of us.
    I have! 010 seems to be characteristic of Jung's Introverted Thinking type, found here: Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10.

  9. #129
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Context! Context! Context!

    We're discussing people who volunteer to be part of a war machine. This is not the general population.
    Neither of those make sense. (And know that I'm arguing now for the joy of arguing semantics with an INTP Tell me when you want me to back off.)

    Nothing about either of the bolded words has anything to do with a valid reason for descrimination. (which is really what the issue is at its core because there is no biological reason why they cannot perform the same duties).

    Just because they volunteer to be a part of something, namely defending their country, doesnt mean that they should have to change who they are or be banned from participating. They aren't ex sociopaths escaped from the insane asylum, they aren't prisoners who commited violent crimes... they are people who want to contribute to a cause.

    The ability to take orders in the military and work with a team does not depend on 'what team you bat for' so to speak, but on your dedication to a cause. Just because you are allowed to admit to being gay doesn't mean you're trying to get attention, it means you are gay. Nothing more. If others choose to make more of it than there is, that is their issue.

    Did the women who got in line to vote for the first time do it simply to draw attention to themselves? Maybe some did, but most did it because they wanted to participate. And for those who DID seek attention, that was their right, because this country is founded on equality, and if their voting disturbed others, it didn't matter. (Were there WOMEN who thought it was horrifying and indecent? Youbecha. )

    But it was the end of an era of injustice. That is what counted. No matter how you look at it, to descriminate is wrong. Being homosexual isn't a disease or disorder. It isn't a handicap. It doesn't cause blurred vision or shakey hands or irrational bouts of hitting on others of the same sex.

    I sense that this idea of the military being a war machine is essential to what you're trying to get across, but the words to express it haven't been quite right yet. I'm starting to get my own gut feeling that I know what you're getting at`but I still don't grasp it with any coherence yet...
    Embrace the possibilities.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    What is wrong with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" if they won't be talking about it?
    At least you admit your being bigoted. I can respect that.

    The problem with it, is that sometimes it slips. Once an investigation begins, that allows for a witch hunt to find evidence. Anyone under scrutiny almost always gets sent out of the service. When someone has dedicated their life to the military, and gets kicked out for sexual orientation, it's a waste of a good soldier. Especially, when the individual did their best to live within the codes of the military.

    And civilians would much rather live their cushy life while others get killed for their freedom. Obama wants people to volunteer. Repealing DADT will provide the estimated number of people necessary. If he doesn't meet his quota, that means he's drafting.

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